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Bow Tweaking Suggestions


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18 replies to this topic

#1
Max1144

Max1144
  • 416 posts

With reload problew out of the picture let's look at bows OP problem due too 1 capacity shooting.

 

 

If you'd like to impart your knowledge about the problems with bows and how we could fix them, you should start another thread in the PVP section to discuss it. No offense taken, I'm not sure how these things are even remotely related.

 

 

 

How about lowering the range on bows? (This way even the 50% ones can't reach defenders?)

 

Have You considered making bows with more capacity? ( still low, like 3-5, but more time shooting less reloading)


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#2
billgfjhghghghgh

billgfjhghghghgh
  • 148 posts

good idea


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#3
Cybertraxx

Cybertraxx
  • 261 posts

I agree. +1 


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#4
tehswordninja

tehswordninja
  • 672 posts

Giving them bonus damage towards infected would be really nice, then I'd consider using them on missions.

Any change thats a positive would be great, and making them less exploitable on raiding would be nice


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#5
Scrub McLordington LXIX

Scrub McLordington LXIX
  • 1,366 posts

Have You considered making bows with more capacity? ( still low, like 3-5, but more time shooting less reloading)

 

He already made one actually, i'm sure more will follow in the future.

78e41652d5.png

 

Not sure about lowering the range, they can be outranged, and that's going to hit PVE as well.


Edited by Scrub McLordington LXIX, 27 June 2016 - 04:00 PM.

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#6
joeIII

joeIII
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It still seems to me that the core of the problem is reload/suppression invincibility.  That and the defensive AI target selection.  "Fixing" bows so they don't take advantage of this strange game mechanic could be a stopgap, but its one of very many in place to avoid fixing the root problem.  (And who knows what the next generation of weapons will be.)

 

I know its an uphill battle, but it really feels like convincing CAG to end suppression invulnerability and improve the AI is the way to go.  Convincing them to nerf everyone's bows seems like an uphill battle as well, and it will address the symptoms rather than the diseases.


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#7
Con

Con
  • 4,100 posts

We had a chat about this last night and the problem isn't with the stats, it's with how the bows function. 

 

Here's the quick rundown of how the bows work:

Drawing an arrow is part of the reload animation. Releasing the arrow from a full draw is the firing animation. This is kind of the standard way you make bows operate in games. Single shot, draw to reload, release to fire.

 

The problem we have is that we don't have a delay in firing (aim time only works when you first pick a target) so the firing part happens really quickly. 

 

Having a single capacity means that once you've fired, it goes straight back into reload, which makes you crouched and causes the invulnerability which is desired. 

 

Rather than changing the way that the cover system works for the ENTIRE game, we're going to look at changing the way that bows function. 

 

So here's what will probably have to happen:

- Reload animation will be changed to be something else

- Pulling an arrow and drawing the bow back will become part of the firing animation

- The rate of the weapon will then be changed to dictate how quickly the bow will fire

- The bows will be given a capacity (a quiver size of sorts) and once that's been depleted, they'll go into a "reload" animation

- Fairly dramatic stat changes will have to happen, but we should be able to maintain the DPS

 

The end result is that they'll act more like a Long Rifle, standing, firing a few shots, ducking, standing, firing a few shots, ducking.



#8
linklink0091

linklink0091
  • 16 posts

As much as i dont want bows to be touch mostly because i am tired of seeing only long rifles being used in raids most the time. The idea of adding more to capacity is enough to ward off the consent reloading of bows allowing one to be more exposed.

 

Edit: That an iv always been a fan of rogue and ranger types in rpgs, so i naturally have a high affinity towards bows :3


Edited by linklink0091, 28 June 2016 - 01:59 AM.

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#9
billgfjhghghghgh

billgfjhghghghgh
  • 148 posts

thanks con


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#10
joeIII

joeIII
  • 429 posts

Nice Con!  That should do it for bow raiding.  Thanks for looking into that.


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#11
ladds

ladds
  • 17 posts

Hmm.. mixed bag really.. bows give the non pay2win guys a chance to succeed without investing a lot of money for op'd guns and LR'S  .. but bow defenses are defensible as well.. just that the bow proof defenses are nadable -- the dmu users have no issues but non dmu would find it a hassle to repair especially in hard wars with a lot of trashing going on. The pay2win guys are mad because they cant have their cake and eat it too... i. e they pay so they should be invincible. I personally dont use bows but i think the system is ok where it is now.


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#12
billgfjhghghghgh

billgfjhghghghgh
  • 148 posts

Actually no. the bow people dont get chance to win with no pay2win  they just win with bows cuz bows reloads constantly so  reload=you cant die bow  all the time is reloading = you cant die  its not like the bow is a good but cheap weapon . the only reason its where it is at raiding now is becouse the invulnerability while reloading..Lets see if con do this changes if people will still want bows to raid that much :)


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#13
linklink0091

linklink0091
  • 16 posts

Iv raided a fair many times with bows and i still get hit while in reload motions, not near as often but i still do. Thier is no invulnerability that everyone keeps talking about, the only thing that has increased is the time behind cover and making use of the cover. They are still going to pop thier heads up often, they will still take damage enough to waste time throwing down smoke to heal up. Raiding with bow needs two mechanics to run off without a hitch in most cases. 

 

You wanna prove me wrong? take some melee on some practice runs and spawn in in range of your survivors and sit thier for a while. They will still take damage while in cover but not near as much as popping up to move around. 


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#14
Cherry

Cherry
  • 792 posts

Iv raided a fair many times with bows and i still get hit while in reload motions, not near as often but i still do. Thier is no invulnerability that everyone keeps talking about, the only thing that has increased is the time behind cover and making use of the cover. They are still going to pop thier heads up often, they will still take damage enough to waste time throwing down smoke to heal up. Raiding with bow needs two mechanics to run off without a hitch in most cases. 

 

Fact is ... bowmen are more busy reloading in cover than shooting.

 

They take way less damage than attackers with RPK or LR.

 

I can easily beat defenses with bows in 2 minutes that I wouldn't have beaten with guns ... that's just wrong.

Five bows versus ten high aps guns and bows succeed.

 

You wanna prove me wrong? take some melee on some practice runs and spawn in in range of your survivors and sit thier for a while. They will still take damage while in cover but not near as much as popping up to move around. 

 

This is just wrong ... you can spawn with melee in range of all defenders and won't get hit as long as you have cover and don't move.

 

This fact is abused and known as melee exploit.


Edited by Cherry, 29 June 2016 - 09:51 AM.

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#15
ISOLAYTORE

ISOLAYTORE
  • 95 posts

time to burn all the bows then

well played p2w boy


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#16
linklink0091

linklink0091
  • 16 posts

Fact is ... bowmen are more busy reloading in cover than shooting.

 

This is just wrong ... you can spawn with melee in range of all defenders and won't get hit as long as you have cover and don't move.

 

This fact is abused and known as melee exploit.

 

Have you used a bow? You certainly wouldnt wanna stand and grab from a quiver while under fire. Its only natural they go down in cover for a short time. Adding a quiver or changing it to stand and shoot like some roman army is ludicrous, plain and simple. I am not saying that thier is nothen wrong with taking out a compound from spawn under that time (but with its high natural damage kinda to be expected). I am just saying thier are better methods open to change then just forcing a survivor to forever stand straight and tall while grabbing from this magic quiver of endless arrows. Forcing the bow to aim each time even if shooting at the same target in secession would be enough to deter it. Con him self said they dont have aim time untill they aim at a new target. Forcing it to have this aim time all the time one human targets would be a great fix to at least dampen the use of bows. 

 

I still feel thier is just a kindling to not accept change for (as far as i know) the newest weapon type. It opens new ways to tackle compounds that normal raid gear would take to long in dealing with. It brings variety. So lets all calm down and think of methods that wont cause a complete overhual of the bow weapon class, kay?

 

As to the melee spawning within range of all range, maybe i should get my hypercam up and running to show yall. Every time i do it majority of them are taken down within a few secs


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#17
joeIII

joeIII
  • 429 posts

I hear ya Link, variety is good.  Keeps players interested that are on the fence about paying for good weapons.  Con and Sev have talked about wanting more variety before.

 

In this instance though, it sure sounds to me like its already decided.  Bow raiding is out, and Con even told us how he plans to do it. 

 

As for the melee thing, I know what you're talking about.  Explaining the differences between that and what Cherry et al are talking about though is pretty much the same thing as teaching people how to melee exploit on the forum.  Further discussion might be better in private in the game.


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#18
linklink0091

linklink0091
  • 16 posts

Alrighty, hit me up in game then. (AG public chat :P)


Edited by linklink0091, 29 June 2016 - 11:32 PM.

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#19
ISOLAYTORE

ISOLAYTORE
  • 95 posts

just ran into a 19 point dude, all my archers are dead in less than 30 seconds, cant even throw a smoke. so wow so exploit

 

Brace yourselves we're going back to reality.


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