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Smoke Breaks Line Of Sight


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#1
Con

Con
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Being unable to target something you can't see is 100% the intended behaviour. Did you notice how the AI survivors you're up against can't target you when you put smoke down?

 

It was a side effect of the last change, yes. 

 

So please, tell me how it legitimately makes sense and for fair gameplay for you to be able to see and target through smoke when the AI cannot. 

 

 



#2
billgfjhghghghgh

billgfjhghghghgh
  • 148 posts

we dont ask our survivors to see when under smoke con. what we saying is  we AIM the enemys  and so when smoke clears and our survivors can see ''laughs''  they can hit the defenders WE want. by changing that con ure making close spawn attacks and genereally in range attack impossible. cuz we CANT target the glass/ammo mod guys as fast as we could. and its a game.  why ure turning it into the ''logic'' .. it doesnt make sence  that  5 bows to be able to win 10 lrs or a mix of rpk AK .. but it happens....so..there a lot of things in game that doesnt make sence but its a game and it dont have to make sence to all of it .


Edited by billgfjhghghghgh, 28 July 2016 - 11:05 PM.

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#3
Con

Con
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we dont ask our survivors to see when under smoke con. what we saying is  we AIM the enemys  and so when smoke clears and our survivors can see ''laughs''  they can hit the defenders WE want. by changing that con ure making close spawn attacks and genereally in range attack impossible. cuz we CANT target the glass/ammo mod guys as fast as we could. and its a game.  why ure turning it into the ''logic'' .. it doesnt make sence  that  5 bows to be able to win 10 lrs or a mix of rpk AK .. but it happens....so..there a lot of things in game that doesnt make sence but its a game and it dont have to make sence to all of it .

 

One more time in coherent language?



#4
billgfjhghghghgh

billgfjhghghghgh
  • 148 posts

what u didnt understand?and i'll explain it better. . or try  cuz were not all perfet in english :)


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#5
Con

Con
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what u didnt understand?and i'll explain it better. . or try  cuz were not all perfet in english :)

 

Sorry, was just a bit hard to read. 

 

So you're saying that defeating spawn traps is impossible without being able pre-aim through smoke?



#6
Salacious

Salacious
  • 68 posts

Being unable to target something you can't see is 100% the intended behaviour. Did you notice how the AI survivors you're up against can't target you when you put smoke down?

 

It was a side effect of the last change, yes. 

 

So please, tell me how it legitimately makes sense and for fair gameplay for you to be able to see and target through smoke when the AI cannot. 

You "saw" already when the fight started and all you're doing is telling your 5 men, "Hey when smoke clears, let's all focus fire that guy in the tower."

 

Your analogy would make sense if our men actually shoot from OUT of the smoke the entire time, but they don't.  All we want is to issue a command, "Hey boys, when smoke clears, everyone get the guy wearing the goofy sunglasses."

 

This isn't an RTS where we can command all 5 men to fire instantly.  We're facing 57 range recons with glasses in towers.  We HAVE to wear armor on attack.  It simply is impossible to field 58 yard range on offense, we can't bring an offensive seige tower with us.  The AI also does not have to issue manual commands when the smoke clears.  All the AI immediately start shooting the nearest attacker.  Sometimes that attacker is wearing armor and can't reach whoever is shooting at him, so it has to be commanded manually.

 

Before this change, we could issue command while inside smoke to all 5 attackers to focus on the weakest men in the tower.  Sometimes that meant using a 40 yard range LR, to shoot up to 50 yards.  As CJ said in the locked thread, when you do this manually after smoke clears, you issue your first command by pressing #1 and teling 1 man to stand up all by himself, this is usually deathf or that first man.  Meanwhile the AI doesn't issue manual commands, they all 7 or 10 start firing immediately after smoke clears, mostly because of their bonus range with tower, or glasses.


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#7
Lanceyy

Lanceyy
  • 219 posts

Problems i see with this:

 

1. Game balance: Spawn traps are already the hardest and most used defences at lvl55. So far we could target low health survivors while under cover of smoke, which was a good way to reduce the firepower of defenders relatively quickly and thus not die each raid.

If we cant do that anymore people will just put fighters with armors and health clothing in front and guy withs ammo mods and deadeyes in the back and u cant survive that dmg if you cant target the weak defenders.

 

2. Top raiders from S0N and L1N seem to agree that its necessary. Since S0N and L1N dont seem to agree on much these days it is probably a good point :)

 

3. So called melee decoys. People put a player with melee on closest barricade to attackers, and thus he gets targeted first. So far this was for the most part only useful till the first smoke grenade. Under cover of that smoke you could simply target whoever you wanted and make that melee in defense relatively useless.

 

The video i linked shows how after smoke the melee defender gets targeted again after the smoke clears.

 


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#8
Gabacho

Gabacho
  • 145 posts

Please consult more than a few raiders before making changes to raiding that affect everyone.

 

This "fix" is ridiculous -

 

I understand no one likes losing raids or losing flags - especially to lesser weapons & gear.

 

So either lets just make all raids auto raids, (solely depending on DPS, Range & health)  - or allow us to maintain just a little control over our attackers please.


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#9
billgfjhghghghgh

billgfjhghghghgh
  • 148 posts

 what  they said ^ IF you spawn into a defence that you get shot by 5-7-10 guys  and your defenders decide to shoot  ( after smoke clears ) the guy with armor... till they kill the armored guy  all my 5 guys will be dead. now if smoke clears and all my 5 guys hit  the tower guy with glasses or the ground guy with glasses. it maybe take 1-4 seconds for him to die. cuz he got glasses. if you take aiming under smoke out then my guys will just hit the armor guy  ( which is mostly used close to spawns ) so kinda impossible /very very very hard to beat spawn traps


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#10
Salacious

Salacious
  • 68 posts

Being unable to target something you can't see is 100% the intended behaviour. Did you notice how the AI survivors you're up against can't target you when you put smoke down?

 

It was a side effect of the last change, yes. 

 

So please, tell me how it legitimately makes sense and for fair gameplay for you to be able to see and target through smoke when the AI cannot. 

You "saw" already when the fight started and all you're doing is telling your 5 men, "Hey when smoke clears, let's all focus fire that guy in the tower."

 

Your analogy would make sense if our men actually shoot from OUT of the smoke the entire time, but they don't.  All we want is to issue a command, "Hey boys, when smoke clears, everyone get the guy wearing the goofy sunglasses."

 

This isn't an RTS where we can command all 5 men to fire instantly.  We're facing 57 range recons with glasses in towers.  We HAVE to wear armor on attack.  It simply is impossible to field 58 yard range on offense, we can't bring an offensive seige tower with us.  The AI also does not have to issue manual commands when the smoke clears.  All the AI immediately start shooting the nearest attacker.  Sometimes that attacker is wearing armor and can't reach whoever is shooting at him, so it has to be commanded manually.

 

Before this change, we could issue command while inside smoke to all 5 attackers to focus on the weakest men in the tower.  Sometimes that meant using a 40 yard range LR, to shoot up to 50 yards.  As CJ said in the locked thread, when you do this manually after smoke clears, you issue your first command by pressing #1 and teling 1 man to stand up all by himself, this is usually deathf or that first man.  Meanwhile the AI doesn't issue manual commands, they all 7 or 10 start firing immediately after smoke clears, mostly because of their bonus range with tower, or glasses.

 

Sorry, was just a bit hard to read. 

 

So you're saying that defeating spawn traps is impossible without being able pre-aim through smoke?

Impossible? no. EXTREMELY difficult, yes.  The AI fires all their shots directly into the nearest guy.  On defense this is achieved with glasses, deadeyes, and tower range bonus.  The attacker simply CANNOT match that range with glasses because he's wearing armor, and gets no tower range bonus.  This usualy means the attacker will have 40-44 yard range and the defenders upwards of 58 yard range.  At 55, a strong defense will not let you start behind any single barricade on the street, without being shot immediately.  My defense, has 3 towers, and 1 deadeye defender that can hit every single spawn point.  Those are the weak points in the defense.  If you cannot target them manually after smoke clears, you will die trying to down the armored figthers on the ground.


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#11
Con

Con
  • 4,150 posts

All I ask for is a mechanics based discourse without hyperbole and ranting. 

 

So what you're all saying is that it's too hard without it. Cool, we'll look into it. 

 

See, easy :)



#12
billgfjhghghghgh

billgfjhghghghgh
  • 148 posts

 we know its easy con thats what we said in the other thread too . just make it like it was for i dont know 4 years already? and all good :)


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#13
Con

Con
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 we know its easy con thats what we said in the other thread too . just make it like it was for i dont know 4 years already? and all good :)

 

Nah, in the other thread a bunch of you were accusing us of colluding with people to make nefarious changes in order to take over the world or something. 

 

There's something coming to help survivability in raids. Soon.



#14
billgfjhghghghgh

billgfjhghghghgh
  • 148 posts

well anyway glad ure   looking  at it . what new infamous-health clothing :P ?


Edited by billgfjhghghghgh, 28 July 2016 - 11:53 PM.

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#15
Con

Con
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well anyway glad ure  making it like it was. what new infamous-health clothing :P ?

 

I didn't say that, I said I'd look at it. 



#16
billgfjhghghghgh

billgfjhghghghgh
  • 148 posts

ok let us know i guess.


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#17
Con

Con
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Con, we're not accusing you of "taking over the world". We are however saying that you tend to listen to only SOME of us instead of ALL of us and that this change, which affects ALL of us was made by listening to just SOME of us! And that this is happening ALL the time and WAY too often and that we find it unfair and frustrating!

 

Tana, honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about. If we've made one or two changes because the same people have presented actual bugs that needed fixing, then that's on me. 

 

I'm not as intimately knowledgeable of every player as you think I am. I deal with thousands of players, sorry if I don't remember your names. 

 

The other thing you need to realise is that you guys are about 0.05% of the population of the game in here. So we have to make decisions that aren't just for 100 people, but for hundreds of thousands. So while you might be a representation of the community, you're a very hardcore subset of that community.



#18
Con

Con
  • 4,150 posts

I think you have a pretty good idea what I am talking about cause ALL the changes that you made recently are only those that were reported by certain people, sorry to say. Whatever the rest of us say seems not to matter. Of course there are thing in game machanics that allow people to win raids. That's what makes it exciting for most of us. If you take all those out just because some OP guys think they allow other players to take own their pounds, you just take PvP away from us. Maybe we're a small percentage of the game, yes, but we're the ones keeping the game alive and going, we're the ones who keep the trade going, we're the ones who keep the recruiting and everything else going, even with all the chat bans that again only SOME of us get. Here's the thing: you have one very OP guy who sends who emails ALL THE TIME about anything he discovers that allows less geared up people take down his pound. I know this very OP guy spends a lot of money in the game and that you face a moral dilemma, but please understand that there are more of us, in that small percentage, actively participating at keeping this game alive. And I am sorry you can't remember me, I am TanaG, I founded and led the game #1 alliance for months now. Nice to meet you!

 

I'm not going to get into this with you. I'll just state that you're wrong and ask you not to make ridiculous accusations like that again.



#19
Con

Con
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Then I will just state that you are wrong. How does that help anybody? Obviously everybody raiding is frustrated with latest changes. I didn't see ONE raider in here, even enemy, stating anything else. And they are NOT accusations. they are statements, I just spoke out what many of us felt, I am sorry if they upset you but I have no other choice but to speak up for many others who feel the same way. Con, it's your game, your business, it's how you make a living. I am just a customer, like many others and right now complaining about the product....and the customer service for that matter.

 

You can email me if you want to talk about this further, I'm not going to subject the forums to more of this back and forth. 



#20
Con

Con
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Anywaaaaaay, we're looking at a fix that will allow your guys to prepare in smoke, but not allow the old exploit to be available. 

 

Also, high end survivability in raids has been an issue for a long time. I'm working to address it. A lot of the issues we have with raids boil down to the fact that your guys go down so quickly if they're hit. 

 

As someone with nearly 30 years of game design experience, I've learned that designing around a problem is often what happens, in the case of PVP in Dead Zone, this has been what's happened. Fundamentally raiding isn't where it was intended to be when initially designed, for a number of reasons. So I'm looking to some core, very basic things to try and bring that back in line.