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The Melee Exploitation Issue

Melee exploitation Issue

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15 replies to this topic

#1
mickeyd

mickeyd
  • 58 posts

So i'm noticing a growing issue of melee exploitation. I thought this would be the place to address the issue here because it's  the appropriate sub-forum to address it here. All I ask is please be civil to each other even know you don't get along So we can possibly work this out.  Please leave the drama somewhere so we can get this issue Solved.


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#2
Maruse

Maruse
  • 742 posts

The problem about the melee exploit is that some people don't see it as an exploit and Con himself think its nothing wrong with it.

 

And con also seems to like the idea and remove any skills needed and turn raiding into a pure only the stats on guns matter.


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#3
Zingman

Zingman
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For the non-raider, kindly explain what the "melee exploit" is, and why it's so bad.

 

Edit to add:  I don't need/want a step-by-step explanation, just an over-all picture. 


Edited by Zingman, 11 April 2017 - 07:00 PM.

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#4
Gabacho

Gabacho
  • 145 posts

Allows you to destroy any base ever made with no guns


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#5
Zingman

Zingman
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Allows you to destroy any base ever made with no guns

 

Not really helpful, as it doesn't explain what it is.  It reminds me a bit of the "invulnerability bug", where the playerbase was thinking that a certain behavior was bugged, while Con was looking at the exact same thing and seeing "normal" behavior  (link).

 

I realize that players may be reluctant to discuss the "melee exploit" in public as they fear further proliferation of the exploit (which is why I didn't ask for step-by-step instructions on how to do it), but without some details about how/why it works, any discussion on how to fix/solve the issue is pointless. 


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#6
passing player

passing player
  • 463 posts

melee exploit:

 

the attacker, using 5 melee survivors, can take an alliance flag defended by 10 survivors with ARs LMGs and LRs. usually using smoke grenades.

and oftentimes the 5 melee survivors dont die. and it almost always work.

 

good enough?


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#7
Gabacho

Gabacho
  • 145 posts

Most basic version of melee manipulation  is spawning near defenders or near the flag (with 5 melee weapons) and throwing a combination of grenades & smoke grenades to either kill all the defenders or simply smoke the flag (while under fire from all defenders). More insidious versions of this exist & the fact is any level compound can be easily beaten with it. Ironically, what is commonly refereed to as "The Melee Exploit" does not even require a single melee weapon. & More complex forms of this AI manipulation will involve atleast a few guns. I will post an old practice raiding video on myself.


Edited by Gabacho, 12 April 2017 - 12:46 AM.

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#8
Gabacho

Gabacho
  • 145 posts

Basic Version of what is commonly called the "Melee Exploit"

 


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#9
Zingman

Zingman
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Either my compound is invulnerable to the "melee exploit" (which I doubt) or you leaving something (important) out.

 

After two dozen attempts in practice mode I was unable to advance beyond the starting cover.  Popping a smoke before the initial suppression was dicey to say the least.  It resulted in a downed survivor (with 70% projectile resist) a couple times and more often than not resulted in the throwing animation being interrupted and the survivor going into suppression anyway.  With the survivors suppressed, the range of the smoke grenades was insufficient to reach the next closest cover.  Trying to chain the smokes and "build a bridge", was suicidal as coming around the corner of the smoke cloud (so that i could throw a another smoke closer) would result in the survivor getting cut to ribbons (again with 70% projectile resist)

 

At no point did i get close enough to throw an M67 where it would kill/damage the defenders.

 

---

 

Now I realize I'm not an expert raider by any means, but I can do the island with ease, and I can accomplish what i want to with the NPC compounds (usually raiding the food/water and the item containers).  I would have thought that'd I'd be able to advance beyond the initial cover.

 

---

 

The video is interesting, but who designs a compound like that?  Utterly moronic unless it's purpose is solely to demonstrate the "melee exploit" with minimal effort.   The one thing (i think) that I was able to glean from that was the manipulation of the targeting AI.  Moving the survivors far enough apart the AI only shot at the closest ones, leaving the one furthest from the defenders unsuppressed.

 

Fiddling around with it again, I was able to replicate this (after moving to a starting cover that wasn't head on with defenders).  With practice I could (probably) take out the defenders using grenades.

 

---

 

So the issue seems to be that when faced with all melee the AI completely ignores survivors that are just a little bit farther away.  Was able to sit there in the starting cover and after moving the survivors just a little bit further apart the one furthest from the defenders wasn't suppressed at all for the duration of the attack (just sat there and let the clock run out).  lobbed a few M67s (they couldn't quite reach) but it never came under fire again -- even when it was tossing the grenades.

 

So the targeting AI needs tinkering with.   It needs to stop blindly shooting at the closet survivor once it's suppressed . and move on to any (unsuppressed) survivor.

 

That might be a harder fix than it sounds, but I have no idea in that regard.


Edited by Zingman, 12 April 2017 - 03:58 AM.

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#10
Gabacho

Gabacho
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To be clear, I am offering no solutions. Nor am I demanding the developers fix it. I have no idea what unintended consequences a fix would have for clean raiding & I am not eager to find out. It is quite easy to discern via raid report how your flag was taken & I am not concerned with defending against these kinds of attacks. As far as your compound being invulnerable to melee raids, I sincerely doubt that. I understand you meant no offense, but that "utterly moronic" defense I had in that video yielded what you would consider surprising results.


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#11
Zingman

Zingman
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To be clear, I am offering no solutions. Nor am I demanding the developers fix it. I have no idea what unintended consequences a fix would have for clean raiding & I am not eager to find out. It is quite easy to discern via raid report how your flag was taken & I am not concerned with defending against these kinds of attacks. As far as your compound being invulnerable to melee raids, I sincerely doubt that. I understand you meant no offense, but that "utterly moronic" defense I had in that video yielded what you would consider surprising results.

 

It isn't.  That somehow got left out in an edit (fixed it).  I half left that in to show that telling me "just take melee only and throw grenades" doesn't work  You need to manipulate the targeting AI (which bringing all melee allows)..   The point is, you want to talk about it, lets talk about it, but there needs to be some base understanding of what the issue actually is.  The problem itself seems fairly starightforward, Just saying "Con need to fix the melee exploit" (not you specifically, but many others), goes nowhere.   The "what" and the "why" is very important, just complaining about the end result and saying "fix it" goes nowhere

 

--

 

And yes I realize that spawn traps are highly effective (especially at higher levels).   Setting your survivors up within throwing range of grenades however, seems to me (from the outside looking in) extremely foolhardy, as demonstrated in that video.   


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#12
IgorC

IgorC
  • 191 posts

So, do the survivors get invulnerable while in cover using mellee is that it? I dont raid either so i also have no idea how the exploit works.


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#13
Maruse

Maruse
  • 742 posts

So, do the survivors get invulnerable while in cover using mellee is that it? I dont raid either so i also have no idea how the exploit works.

 

Well yeah pretty much, it makes you capable of wrecking a whole compound without putting any effort into it. You can call it almost god mode or very easy mode.


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#14
Cherry

Cherry
  • 792 posts

Oh Wurstl, month back you trashed people for melee exploiting but since you discovered it you gonna defend it.

 

Attackers duck behind a small barricade or car and stand up to throw grenades.

 

It is nearly impossible in reality not to get shot doing this. It is also totally weird that men throwing grenades don't get targeted, not much realism here.

 

Keep on turning things around how you need it ... I don't really care anymore. Melee exploit is melee exploit.


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#15
tehswordninja

tehswordninja
  • 678 posts

Oh Wurstl, month back you trashed people for melee exploiting but since you discovered it you gonna defend it.

 

Attackers duck behind a small barricade or car and stand up to throw grenades.

 

It is nearly impossible in reality not to get shot doing this. It is also totally weird that men throwing grenades don't get targeted, not much realism here.

 

Keep on turning things around how you need it ... I don't really care anymore. Melee exploit is melee exploit.

if anything, survivors throwing grenades should be top priority. I think when you throw a grenade, if enemy survivors are in range, they automatically target that one survivor over others.  


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#16
mickeyd

mickeyd
  • 58 posts

The whole discussion is a bit ridiculous.

If we skip all emotional and personal stuff for a moment about this and only think physical its this:

 

Melee Exploit is not an exploit at all!! - Imagine yourself in the view of your survivor hiding behind a low massive concrete wall in crouch position, 100% covered: there is no way you catch a bullet but it should be possible to throw things over that wall, even if you cannot see live what is going on behind that wall right? you remember defender positions from raidstart probably 0.2sec till you could take cover. But as long as memory works you know the direction and how far to throw those nades right? - So is this realisme or exploit?

 

The real exploit has to do with how the attackers got so close (green zone) without being discovered! That doesnt make much sense.

So what does "fix it" mean everyone is talking about? does it mean removing realisme to have a smoother game? then its not fixing something.

the devs removed allytab, that is kind of a fix against melee eploit and all exploits. ppl cant find their farms that easily anymore. somewhere there are the solutions.  

 

 

Oh Wurstl, month back you trashed people for melee exploiting but since you discovered it you gonna defend it.

 

Attackers duck behind a small barricade or car and stand up to throw grenades.

 

It is nearly impossible in reality not to get shot doing this. It is also totally weird that men throwing grenades don't get targeted, not much realism here.

 

Keep on turning things around how you need it ... I don't really care anymore. Melee exploit is melee exploit.

enough, I didn't make this sub forum for you guys to bicker. if you want this issue solved, acting like children won't help your cause. please be civil, because this could be your last chance of getting this issue addressed.


Edited by mickeyd, 28 April 2017 - 04:15 AM.

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