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Patch 1.75 Build 2201


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#41
chris327

chris327
  • 68 posts

Can we ask, whose feedback? I dont recall seeing any polls or forum threads discussing the major problem and issue of "defender ai targeting one survivor at a time until he is suppressed". Because if there was such a thread majority of raiders would just say obviously that there is no problem there whatsoever.

 

Is that feedback possibly from e-mails written by certain players who want to make their compounds unbeatable?

You dont raid yourselves so its easy to present a fringe example (like melee attacker not considered a threat) and ask for a simple solution (let defenders shoot at all that is in line of sight).

 

You fell for the same scam as when you disabled reloading in raids. It was just a few angry money paying lvl55s who couldnt stand seeing their strong defenses being taken out by a reload tank. If you asked the community, 90% would tell you that it doesnt affect them in any way. Neither have they experienced it nor have they done it.

I raid for 4 years and hadnt had both. And in this process of indulging a chosen few, you actually DISABLED RELOADING IN RAIDS lol. Take a look at that sentence and think a little if you dare,

 

So back to the newest scam you are falling for,due to your inexperience and not knowing what mechanics are used in day to day raiding and their relation to weapons and gear that are being used, day to day, accepted by community, established, well known and just fine as they are (or were sadly).

 

The players that wrote to you (if they did-its just a theory of mine) knew very well what they wanted to achieve.

lvl 55 compound (of such players) covers 100% of the compound map with effective range. you get that? you believe me? ask others,make a poll or something. Ok,moving on, baby steps.

When you spawn on such a compound,you are being shot at by lets say 4-6 long rifles. Only way such a compound could be dealt with..and is by no means a 100% success is to have one attacker being closest to the defenders carrying a gun that has lower range,so he doesnt get up to shoot and die but instead gives a second of time (while defenders are shooting and suppressing him), a literal second or two for your guys to take a couple of shots and for you to throw a smoke grenade on your feet. And rinse and repeat and maybe,if there are no crit shots and yada yada 10 other things you break that defense.

 

And you made it so...everybody dies upon entering the raid. Oh that sounds great, raiding is finally fixed, amazing. Community will love it.

So there you go, i hope your selected few are happy now, because all who dare to venture to their compounds are just wasting time.

 

And btw, what i mentioned like 50 times by now on this forum, but is obviously not important and extremely fringe,it is much less important than say, survivors that are out of cover running and stuff.

 

Why do we have compounds that cover 100% of compound map with effective range? Why hasnt the compound been expanded yet with added more distant high covers, or range of the problem guns lowered? Oh, wait, yeah, that is not an issue at all.

 

Cheers.

mainly curious on this part,

he players that wrote to you (if they did-its just a theory of mine) knew very well what they wanted to achieve.

lvl 55 compound (of such players) covers 100% of the compound map with effective range. you get that? you believe me? ask others,make a poll or something. Ok,moving on, baby steps.

When you spawn on such a compound,you are being shot at by lets say 4-6 long rifles. Only way such a compound could be dealt with..and is by no means a 100% success is to have one attacker being closest to the defenders carrying a gun that has lower range,so he doesnt get up to shoot and die but instead gives a second of time (while defenders are shooting and suppressing him), a literal second or two for your guys to take a couple of shots and for you to throw a smoke grenade on your feet. And rinse and repeat and maybe,if there are no crit shots and yada yada 10 other things you break that defense.

 
how is this not an exploit? its doing the same thing as reload exploit. making someone not stand to not take damage to buy time. 

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#42
lael

lael
  • 200 posts

Hi.  Part of this patch was in response to my post in feedback "more melee madness."  There was no "scam."  If this fix did create additional problems for raiders it was an unintended consequence and I am sure all player feedback here will be considered in any additional tweaking.


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#43
chris327

chris327
  • 68 posts

lael i dont think this had any fix to melee exploit though


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#44
ChrisHitchens

ChrisHitchens
  • 77 posts

ivan there are many way to beat them who with the componds that cover 100% of compound map with eff range. one of the way is use herc armors. use herc armors in close spawn to beat them.  

 

Being one of the people who have both max range guns and herc armor I can tell you there is no way you would beat my defence by simply spawning close to it.

You would spawn and you would die before you could drop a smoke. That is the way it is.

 

mainly curious on this part,

he players that wrote to you (if they did-its just a theory of mine) knew very well what they wanted to achieve.

lvl 55 compound (of such players) covers 100% of the compound map with effective range. you get that? you believe me? ask others,make a poll or something. Ok,moving on, baby steps.

When you spawn on such a compound,you are being shot at by lets say 4-6 long rifles. Only way such a compound could be dealt with..and is by no means a 100% success is to have one attacker being closest to the defenders carrying a gun that has lower range,so he doesnt get up to shoot and die but instead gives a second of time (while defenders are shooting and suppressing him), a literal second or two for your guys to take a couple of shots and for you to throw a smoke grenade on your feet. And rinse and repeat and maybe,if there are no crit shots and yada yada 10 other things you break that defense.

 
how is this not an exploit? its doing the same thing as reload exploit. making someone not stand to not take damage to buy time. 

I agree with you completely. It most definitely is exploiting the game mechanics. But it is also the only way to beat some defences for real. Yes, I know all the tactics that deal with it, spawning far building smoke bridges and doing close up play from the inside etc. The thing is that this change affects those tactics as well. To quote one of the best at those strats that I know of "It was hard before but now don't even bother".

 

An important distinction between this and the reload exploit is that this only works in the initial spawn in, after the first barrage and smoke they will switch targets. So it basicly just takes it from impossible to hard.

 

This is why no one ever cried foul when it was used because they realized it was the only way to get around the design flaw (can't think of a better way to put it). I would rather have a situation where it is not needed but for that to happen compounds need to be bigger or range needs to be nerfed.

 

lael i dont think this had any fix to melee exploit though


Edited by ChrisHitchens, 19 May 2017 - 08:56 PM.

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#45
lael

lael
  • 200 posts

Really 3g? did u read my post in feedback on more melee madness?  Apparently there is more to melee and short-ranged weapons or no weapons than just what you call "melee exploit."   In that thread, according to sev this patch was to address and  decrease  the threat level of melee equipped defenders.. and perhaps attackers that use melee and short-ranged weps to deflect fire upon spawn.  As per that thread, whether or not this fix would affect those that only employ melee on offense, which many considered to be offensive (lol) i.e. a game-breaking exploit was to be determined and not the objective of this particular  patch.


Edited by lael, 20 May 2017 - 04:02 AM.

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#46
BLACKDRAGON

BLACKDRAGON
  • 205 posts

Well @ Black Dragon so u are saying u need 10 herc armor to beat these Hard spawn trap after recent AI change, btw did u ever notice how many of guys are there with 5/10 herc armors.


Bro i didnt say craft 10 herc armor...atleast 4 enought to beat them, and i didnt spend any money to buy herc. wat you need is playing union island, infected bounty and raiding to get warbox and collect those prototype boxes

Edited by BLACKDRAGON, 20 May 2017 - 12:16 AM.

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#47
BLACKDRAGON

BLACKDRAGON
  • 205 posts

Being one of the people who have both max range guns and herc armor I can tell you there is no way you would beat my defence by simply spawning close to it.

You would spawn and you would die before you could drop a smoke. That is the way it is.

 

chris really? i think you didnt know about me overall. tell me your lvl 55 name, and i show you how close spawn is work. I must say that you are most easier compound to raid in my list. xD


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#48
chris327

chris327
  • 68 posts

Really 3g? did u read my post in feedback on more melee madness? Apparently there is more to melee and short-ranged weapons or no weapons than just what you call "melee exploit." In that thread, according to sev this patch was to address and increase the threat level of melee equipped defenders.. and perhaps attackers that use melee and short-ranged weps to deflect fire upon spawn. As per that thread, whether or not this fix would affect those that only employ melee on offense, which many considered to be offensive (lol) i.e. a game-breaking exploit was to be determined and not the objective of that particular patch.


My fault lael didn't read that full thread till now. Thought it was a different thread. You are correct about the melee attacker 1st in line. It's an exploit and this did fix it. Nice work in getting that fixed. Same with the melee defender getting targeted. While neither were used very much in kong from what I've seen still nice to see something getting fixed.
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#49
ChrisHitchens

ChrisHitchens
  • 77 posts

chris really? i think you didnt know about me overall. tell me your lvl 55 name, and i show you how close spawn is work. I must say that you are most easier compound to raid in my list. xD

It's the same as my name here, playing on Kong.

And apparently you don't know me either :P


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#50
BLACKDRAGON

BLACKDRAGON
  • 205 posts

It's the same as my name here, playing on Kong.

And apparently you don't know me either :P

i no need to know about you. and kind of defence you create, i can break your defence. same goes to players who with 10 herc+10 perfect weapon, still nothing to me. I have my own strategy. :D


Edited by BLACKDRAGON, 20 May 2017 - 05:56 PM.

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#51
ChrisHitchens

ChrisHitchens
  • 77 posts

i no need to know about you. and kind of defence you create, i can break your defence. same goes to players who with 10 herc+10 perfect weapon, still nothing to me. I have my own strategy. :D

I know you can beat a lot of compounds by simply spawning ontop of them. What I'm talking about are the ones that you can't.

It doesn't matter what strategy you have, you will be downed before you can do anything so I'm not sure if you know what you're talking about.

There is by definition no time for any strategy :P

 

If you're abusing bows then congrats, most of us don't consider that strategy though.


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#52
BLACKDRAGON

BLACKDRAGON
  • 205 posts

Lmao, its seem you lack of raiding skills. I hope con merge kong and armor games, so i can teach you. xD  close spawn no need use bows, rpks enough.


Edited by BLACKDRAGON, 21 May 2017 - 02:14 AM.

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#53
Keksode

Keksode
  • 16 posts

Lmao, its seem you lack of raiding skills. I hope con merge kong and armor games, so i can teach you. xD  close spawn no need use bows, rpks enough.

 

That's a nice offer, but it's not the point.

 

Right now, the best raiders get problems to raid reach other, some already seem to have compounds that cannot be beaten anymore. Even without using any "exploits" on their defense.  And the ones attacking are not some newbie raiders,  but some of the most skilled ones with the heaviest equipment...

 

So the question is, whether unbeatable defenses are a thing we want or not.

 

EDIT: grammar...


Edited by Keksode, 21 May 2017 - 08:00 AM.

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#54
BLACKDRAGON

BLACKDRAGON
  • 205 posts

bro there is no unbeatable defence. All defence can be raid without using any ""exploits".  You tell me which defence is unbeatable, and i post here how to raid them. 


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#55
Sev

Sev
  • 547 posts

The changes that were made were done in response to some emails. Contrary to what some people seem to be implying though, we didn't make changes just because someone asked us to.  

 

We were shown videos of game breaking bugs, such as:

- Survivors literally walking past guards and taking flags with not a care in the world.

- Defenders not being coaxed out of position and made to run around like mindless zombies.

- Defenders not bothers to shoot the guy running back and forth in front of them (as long as they kept moving).

and a few others.

 

We were able to replicate them ourselves and made the relevant changes to fix them.

 

I believe the issue here mostly comes down to the change that stops everyone from targeting the one guy.  This was something that was added because it just seemed wrong to have 5 people (let alone 10) shoot at one guy, when there are 4 others standing next to them.

 

If this is really is too OP then I am happy to take feedback and look into it again when I have the chance.



#56
morsmagnes3

morsmagnes3
  • 19 posts

Sev,

 

It really is too op. The problem is that even if you're doing angle raids, when isolating 1 enemy survivor at a time while you have 3 shooting at him, your 3rd survivor way far back with glasses or Deadeye will die in 1 hit regardless of the survivors in the front. It happened to me on multiple occasions when I was fighting 3v1 and my 2 tanks didn't get suppressed and my 3rd guy in the back just died in 1 hit from a M107. This makes recons completely useless at level 55 raiding. It also takes away the famous DeadEye+RPK combo that everyone loves since your DE survivor will die for no reason.

 

And in head on raids, the survivors don't just shoot at 1 guy. That 1 guy has far less than 1 second react time before he dies or get suppressed if you don't instantly throw a smoke on yourself. The moment that happens, the 2nd, 3rd guy and so on did get attacked. Herc armor or not, a full map spawntrap doesn't give you any room for error, even without your new update. Now it's just near impossible to beat some defenses. 

The only way the new update fixe:"5 people (let alone 10) shoot at one guy, when there are 4 others standing next to them"  is on the super easy compounds where you spawn very far away and range is not an issue. However, this is a huge buff to the near unbeatable level 55 defenses. It's making them not worth raiding at all. Many players with half decent guns and herc armor on defense can now make a defense that even the strongest raiders will find nearly impossible to beat. 

 

To end this message, this new update might be sort of a solution for low level raiding, but at level 55, this is game breaking. It doesn't matter how skilled the attacker is, the guns he has, if the defender has enough dps, the attacker will die before he can do anything. Many defenses that I use to beat last week or 2 weeks ago, now I can survive a few seconds, usually not long enough to throw a smoke.

 

I hope you take this into consideration. We all know the game peaked a long time ago and players keep leaving, but if I may say, I think this is on the path of breaking level 55 PVP and I honestly do not think it's a good idea.

 

Thanks for your time,

mors


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#57
Cherry

Cherry
  • 789 posts

This will end in Kong vs AG/FB ....

 

All raiders I talked to so far say close spawn has become easier coz the man closest to defenders doesn't get insta killed anymore.

 

I can hardly imagine Kong got other defenses .... so I don't get the problem at the moment.

 

Time to reactivate my account at Kong I assume :)


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#58
Ivan

Ivan
  • 542 posts

I can hardly imagine Kong got other defenses .... so I don't get the problem at the moment.

 

Apart from the mindless close spawn, all other raiding strategies are being hurt by the change.

Like others have already mentioned, glasses, angling, fighting from distance in lower lvls.

 

I dont know why "skill" is being mentioned in the same sentence with close spawn raiding (not by you) because close spawn is just the crunch of numbers. If you are doing everything "legally" (no bows etc.) you will win if you have better guns/gear, and yes this change made it easier. Compounds you could have beaten in close spawn before the change are even easier for you now because of the fact that you mentioned.

 

Can you beat the best defenses (best stats on armors, best dmg bonuses on weapons) using close spawn? You cannot.


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#59
ChrisHitchens

ChrisHitchens
  • 77 posts

Please take a look at it con.

And I can only sign up on what ivan said. Sure you can beat the weaker ones easily these days no skill needed, just spawn in and smoke when supressed, rinse repeat.

The harder ones though have gone the other way.

One example is a raider with some very nasty perfect guns spawning in with perfect herc armors to boot. He smoked 8 times without managing to kill a single survivor on the defence. Sure it could be a fluke but I have noticed the same when attacking my own comp.

 

If by any chance on AG everyone is getting too easy to beat that might be just as good a reason as it going the other way on Kong, to have it checked out.

 

And no I am not new to raiding, I have well over 10 000 raids under my belt and some of them against people who have simultaneously been some of the top crop of L1N in it's hay day.


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#60
chris327

chris327
  • 68 posts
I have not noticed much to any difference in raiding both at 55 and in the 40s. I have no idea how to beat the full spawn traps. I've never beat those defenses before as the only way I known of was the smg exploit of the first in line taking the suppression smoke, repeat. I never used that method as its a clear exploit of the system. Glad it was fixed. Maybe making the maps bigger would help to beat these defenses. Or maybe there is some other method I don't know about. But I have no issues with the updates.

Also speaking of 2 man and 3 man raiding maybe the idea is 3 men should rarely be able to beat 10. Yet I still can raid with deadeye and recons and not have an issue.
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