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War: Can It Be Revived?

war raiding alliances

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#1
CasualRace

CasualRace
  • 94 posts

Perennial question: can war be expanded?  Many raiders feel the changes made to War and to Raiding have made both less interesting.  I don't want to launch those debates here since it has been covered elsewhere (as well as being decided upon with seemingly minimal debate).

 

This round is interesting insofar as another alliance other than Shadowplay is in first place...and handily.  TED is dominating thanks to their determination, high number of raiders, and a willingness to accelerate returns to maximize the number of raids.  SP in second and then that's about it.  Third place is far behind.  Fourth place is exceptional (congrats Maddie...go for it!) and happens every four to six months as one raider tries to place 3rd by himself (alts, of course, as well).  Then there is everyone else...which is to say almost no one else.

 

After all these years and all the discussions, we are still back at the same problem.  War sucks unless you are in one of three alliances.  And I don't even mean that because fourth place gets no fuel; I mean that there are generally three and only three alliances raiding seriously...perhaps a total of 40 raiders in all.  Why can't we get more competition? What is keeping people from raiding?

 

First, alliances tend to dominate.  KBF, SP, now TED (forgive me if I have forgotten the older top raiding alliances) attract the best raiders, have the best gear, and share the best information and training.  If you are not in a top alliance, you can't learn much and will be come frustrated with endless raids which lead only to level gaps and injuries. 

 

We need greater incentives for newer, younger alliances to participate.   Prizes should be extended to the top five alliance, perhaps even top seven.  Of course this means more prizes in the way of fuel or something else.   Maybe keep the top three prizes but five fourth and fifth kits, rare LR's, or extra boosts of some sort.  Or just more fuel for everyone!  Yayy!

 

Second, many players don't want to raid or be raided.  We have clearly agreed in the past that we can't force people to raid.  But can we entice them to get raided if we take away the pain.  Despite the arrogant and vociferous anti-PVE crowd out there who would like to eliminate the White Flag, most players respect PVE players and can't imagine forcing them to open their gates for incessant raiding.  Instead, we could modify the WF to allow those players to be raided but no resources can be taken (including fuel) and anything that gets broken is automatically repaired (a one-click repair after the raid so the defender can see what happened).  Points can be awarded for defense, as usual, and for success based on the gear, guns, and level of the defender.  Ultimately his defense record should make his value change.  I, and many others I have spoken to, would be happy to let raiders try out our awesome gear and guns...but only if we don't suffer in the process.

 

Part of increasing participation would also entail extending the number of players in an alliance who qualify for fuel (or some other prize).  If we can increase competition, it will mean that wars will no longer be won by the top five to seven raiders but by 15 to 20 raiders in the alliance.  Putting all that effort into helping your alliance win and ending up with nothing but a huge level gap is disincentive in itself. 

 

Whatever has been done to raiding and war over the past four years has not helped.  Quite the opposite.  The tweaks and changes have been in response to exploits and bugs.  We need to look at positive changes now.  It would be nice if we could address something more fundamental: how to get more alliances and players involved in war. 


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#2
tingadabopper

tingadabopper
  • 85 posts

"Instead, we could modify the WF to allow those players to be raided but no resources can be taken (including fuel) and anything that gets broken is automatically repaired"

 

Sounds like weak stuff to me, don't like it, don't raid. 

 

 

Part of increasing participation would also entail extending the number of players in an alliance who qualify for fuel (or some other prize).  If we can increase competition, it will mean that wars will no longer be won by the top five to seven raiders but by 15 to 20 raiders in the alliance

 

More people getting fuel outside top 10 sounds like bull to me as well, don't work hard, you don't deserve it a reward, plus you still get a war box, which is fine. However, I do agree there should be more than 3 getting fuel, I think 5 would be nice. Like you say, bring more raiders into the mix. 

 

I've played this game for 4 months, if at level 55 I can get top 10 weekly whilst going to college and work, I'm sure others can.

 

 

Also..."TED is dominating thanks to their determination, high number of raiders, and a willingness to accelerate returns to maximize the number of raids"

 

We're not speeding up but people will believe what they want to lol ^.^


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#3
tingadabopper

tingadabopper
  • 85 posts

Also, careful where you step lol http://forum.conarti...ce-forum-rules/ in regards to accusing TED of speeding up lol.


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#4
CasualRace

CasualRace
  • 94 posts

Okay, thanks at least for replying but your comments are fairly aggressive and not very constructive.  Perhaps you are annoyed that I said that TED was speeding up...this is simply based on some alliance members watching raids.  I also don't know why you are threatening me with the forum rules.  Speeding up is not illegal or an exploit.  Why are you so touchy about it?

 

Your comments don't address the problem but amount to primping and chest-beating. (hooray for you! You are an awesome raider and no one else deserves anything!).  I don't see how your comments contribute positively to expanding War.  You are merely saying that you are awesome and happy.  Meanwhile war is just two alliances week in and week out.

 

Yes, if you don't like raiding, don't raid.  Gee, thanks for that amazing insight.  So pithy, so ...um...insightful.  If you think there are enough targets, enough raiders and enough and enough alliances in the wars, then say so.  We have gone down that road of insulting PVE players before and it has gone nowhere.  If you don't like raiding, you put up WF.  My question to you, if you can get off your high horse a few minutes to answer it, is, do you think it is interesting or worthwhile to entice PVE players into War one way or other?  If so, how.

 

Would someone with something constructive to say like to reply.


Edited by CasualRace, 29 June 2017 - 05:44 PM.

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#5
ChrisHitchens

ChrisHitchens
  • 100 posts

This is not a new issue really. Extending the top 10 fuel prizes is something I have called for for a long time since it becomes an issue the moment your active raider pool exceeds that number. TED will start to notice this too with an increase in raiders and will have to deal with it when it becomes a problem.

When the same players get the fuel rewards each time it will start to sting for the players that don't get it, over and over. There are self sacrificial ways to handle it but that is not really ideal.

 

As for increasing the fuel prizes beond top 3 might also be a thing to further interest and competition, I have suggested that since about 2 years back I think. I don't think any of it will get any traction though.

 

As for speeding up, whatever, if someone did who cares, TED doesn't have any need to do it to win, active and good raiders and more of them. It's not really slander though :P

 

Another thing that is a bit of a game breaker is that numbers count for everything right now. I tried it out with two accounts, one went for free flags only for a day the other went for the top score targets with as little attackers used as possible every time. The one going for free flags outscored the account that had went for the hard targets. It's a hard balance to strike between not starving people of targets and not overflowing with targets a toddler can 1-man with a pea shooter. The score balance just doesnt add up. If one goes with 2 attackers to take down an 80- point target one might as well take the 2 41 pointers that take half the time to do :P

It's no wonder that people will take the easy way out everytime, heck I am because there are really no good reasons not to.


Edited by ChrisHitchens, 29 June 2017 - 06:21 PM.

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#6
tingadabopper

tingadabopper
  • 85 posts

Lol just like every other game forum. @Casualrace...

 

Chris: "As for increasing the fuel prizes beond top 3 might also be a thing to further interest and competition, I have suggested that since about 2 years back I think. I don't think any of it will get any traction though."

 

Also Chris: "Extending the top 10 fuel prizes is something I have called for for a long time"

 

You're clearly misunderstanding me, I'm not aggressive at all but I look at it how it is and 99.9999% likely always will be. Chris just said himself, he's been calling for it for ages yes? extending top 3 (which i agree with) and extending top 10 (which I also agree with). Are either going to happen? No, so I'd rather not get my hopes up. 

 

 

 

@Chris Yh bro no doubt it'll be a problem, when I was in ARA we had a few people leave because of it ^.^

 

"The one going for free flags outscored the account that had went for the hard targets" Yep lol. I've done 2 big point targets this week, tang and dkk, and what a waste of time it was. More satisfying, admittedly, so I now understand where you old raiders are coming from ^.^ as I am still new-ish I did not understand but now a bit hehe ^^


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#7
morsmagnes3

morsmagnes3
  • 85 posts

@Con

 

If the inactive targets and the players giving their flags for free would be reduced to 5 points or even 0, PVP would actually be about raiding and not just being online and taking free flags.

We currently all take free flags since it's the best way to score but frankly, this is taking the fun out of the game.

The old PVP system we had around 1.5-2 years ago was way better since it only allowed to to score on active alliances, limiting the free flags and inactive flags.

 

Having the same alliance score the same inactive target's free flag every 2 hours for 6 days strait is not a fun way to raid and not a fun way to win rounds.

The war might look competitive because of the high scores, but in reality we are not raiding for fun at this point, it just feels like a boring job to score free easy flags and then having the competitive alliance doing the exact same 1 hour later and then our turn the next hour and so on.

 

The current PVP system makes it so quantity will always win while the quality of raids doesn't matter since the easiest way to win is by taking free flags only.

 

Players talked about the reload exploit for a long time, but free flags is a much bigger exploit since it allows anyone without any good mechanics on this game to outscore the most skilled raiders out there. Removing every targets who haven't logged in for 3-7 days or something from the target list would greatly reduce this issue.

Giving the real protection timer (12 hours if 10 are killed) ,instead of close to no protection on the inactives, to every targets including the less active ones would also fix a portion of the issue.

 

Anyway, some might vote this down, but any old raiders will agree with me on this one.

 

Thanks for your time,

mors


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#8
KW_RAIDER

KW_RAIDER
  • 12 posts

well as explained by some above, i also have same point. in current war system, its more beneficial to raid 10 free targets instead of 2 or 3 hard targets taking 3/3/4 member teams. in free flag raid u will earn between 200-400 pts per raid round but if u go for hard target at max u will earn around 200-300 and chances are u may fail couple raids but against free flags its a sure shot 100% win unless u urself wanna mess.

so are we really fighting to win round, its just repetitive, first we hunt all free target and after 1-2 hour opponent alliance wiil farm those free targets.  wots fun in that and i can say that not a single PVP raider will accept this point system as there is no place for skills. yeah everyone can see that no of points scored per round is increasing but out of those score how many actaul raids done by raiders u will get ur answer.

 

so i have 2 possible solution to revive this war system and get some real fun and challenge to it.

1st.  a free flag point should be restricted to either Zero "0" or at max 5 not more than that so no one will waste their time for 1 5 pointer and thy will go for actal raids to earn points.

2nd  lock a target for 12 hour minimum so thy no one can farm same taget back to back. my idea behind this is in current point system u can farm a free flag target back to back after a short span of 4 hour may be less, so same target can be raided like 4-5 times a day by same person, even u are killing his all 10 defender. Is it a ideal situation for PVP ???

 

so just minimize points for a free flag (inactive person flag) to either Zero or 5 and 2nd lock a target for minimum 12 hours if u kill like 6-7 defenders. i am sure these 2 small change will again get back actual fun and challange part of PVP and there is no hidden advantage behind these 2 chnge so i doubt anyone will have any objection for these 2 changes i proposed.

 

atleast skilled raiders will understand my point what i was trying to explain.

 

Sorry for my shit english. just try my best to explain myself.


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#9
ChrisHitchens

ChrisHitchens
  • 100 posts

Also.... 

 

http://forum.conarti...r-alliance-war/

 

Con  expanded the top 10 rewards one time, to top 20... as sort of an experiment... 

 

Let's not try and repeat history here.... It'd only make the top 3 richer.... However... expanding the rewards from top 3 to top 5 is something which I wouldn't mind him doing... 

It was expanded on a 25% item boost round, guess how representative that data was :P

And like I have said before, personally I wouldn't mind if the cost of the top 10-20 were covered by simply dividing up the existing prize fuel.

It would simply spread it out a bit so that more people would have a reason to go raiding.

 

As for your other points don't forget that all the top players you see on kong today have started off with the same disadvantage you are at, when we started our oposition had similarly crazy unis. There were ways to compete with range in a very effective way before (the interuptability of the crouching animation on FAL for instance) but those ways are being taken out of the game one by one it seems. So in short I agree with you sort of, let's not repeat past mistakes.


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#10
KW_RAIDER

KW_RAIDER
  • 12 posts

lol its really fun to see tht u urself accepting that i dint wanna do actual raids and i am happy with this point exploit system where i can score more points than a well skilled raider by just non stop farming of free flags back to back in every 3-4 hour. mate we also face this situation when i started playing DZ 4-5 years back with no uni LR's i started raiding using green blue SS and used to go for easy scattered defence with like 10-20 pointer each. but atleast tht time except 3-4 free flag u have to earn your point in a real way. and i just wanna know that how much of real PVP u have learned by farming those free flags ( 1 manning with melle). u will be at same stage at u are right now. everyone face these situation as u have to spend time to learn skills and loot LR's. no one get it from day 1.

i have raided like more thn 6 months by all green, blue stuff by searching easy defence tht i can easily beat using my 5 man team, then as time pass i learned some thing and looted some stuff, i started raiding hard bases and top 3 alliance. this is no excuse that being a new guy u cant match with top 3 alliance, its not for you only bro it applies to everyone, we were also in same position like u are facing right now. but mark my word u still can earn ur lvl 3 box by using blue/purple ss and crafted FAL and can make a hell defence.

dont cry saying i have nothing, i cant beat top 3. spend some time and most Imp learn how to raid, not how to farm free flags. or else u will be same non raider crying i cant beat hard defence even after 3 years.

its not for my personal benifit, i spend 5 years in this game to learn PVP and still learning as u cant be perfect there are things which u can learn even from a new raider. and this change will not only affect you but its for all, i am not saying just block it for those who farming free flags, and wots real fun in doing tht free flags loot. and if u really dont wanna change it sooner time will come whoever some old raiders still active thy will left PVP too, as thr is no sense that a perfect raider who going after hardest target having maximum points from war target list and scoring around 150-250 points in his first round, and a guy with zero skills earning around 200-400 points every round and can raid same target back to back after 4 hour. while the target will be locked for skilled raider for more thn 12 hours, wots shitty logic is behind this non sense point system.

if u really happy being a non raider, and only interested in farming free flags, thn i would say free flag should not be more than 10 points per flag, or else wotever fun part left in this game it will also die as time passed.

mate i am not against you, but think it for everyone perspective, guys who have spend more thn 2-3 years upto 5 years to learn actual raiding and how to beat hard defence without any exploit, that all hard work effort those guys made u want to take it out from picture. if its a case than i can see real PVP part of this game will die,


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#11
KW_RAIDER

KW_RAIDER
  • 12 posts

and abt your concern about a new guy cant beat top 3 alliance dude, you are wrong mate, u just practice 1 month about some basics of PVP and i cant see except well loaded alt of an old PVP raider u can beat almost any defence with just 1 uni LR combined with blue purple ss, or if its above lvl 23-30 crafted FAL's can beat any defence even loaded alt defence.

and i can show u some way how to start actual learning of PVP, there are loats of threads in this forum also u can use them to learn very basic of PVP and by practice of 20-30 days u can beat anyone easily. search a thread started by an old player Dumb jock something named basic strategy for new players to learn how to raid. and to be honest that was really helpfull not for me but for more thn 100 of players like me who joined that time. a first learning material for new guys and all methods, skills explained in that thread are 100% working. and that how i first learned how angling works and how u can beat those so called unbeatable one side wonders. i can tell you that was first explanation by a old player who shows a way first how to beat one sided wonders in easiest way.

So things are not that much hard mate if u really interested in raiding, just spend some time, learned some skills from videos recorded by old raiders from your team mate, and u will be one of them explaning how to raid to some other new guys after 4-5 months.

farming free flags by excusing u cant raid top 3 alliance or any descent defence will not take u anywhere, u will be on same plateform u are in right now. and will give same excuse that even after spending 1-2 years u still cant beat a descent defence.

start learning and accept it that u cant beat everyone from day 1, spend time learn discuss, watch recorded videos and u willl be one of them skilled raiders after 4-5 months, that how things learned here in DZ.

If u really wanna remembered yourself as a true raider.

i can tell you more than 10 players name (On Kong server)  who started raiding in last 4-5 months and now can beat almost any defence except 1/2 as thr are exceptionally hard defence for everyone. so stop hiding behind excuse of i cant raid and i dont wanna learn a shit and still wanna beat those bad ass raiders who spend 4-5 years to learn PVP.

Thnks


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#12
KW_RAIDER

KW_RAIDER
  • 12 posts

and last i am not pointing it out towards anyone. i am just sharing my own experience i learned in past 5 years. Hope u will understand wot i was trying to explain, think abt those who spend years to learn things, u can't simply kick them out of picture by this worst ever point reward system.

actually i will not say worst, as now we have more target as compare to older one, but some changes need to be made to improve it that i already explained in my old comment.

a complete trashed defence and not logged in last 10-20 days, point awarded to such target should be zero or atmax 5. ( in present scenario there are more thn 10-20 of such free target, by raiding them u can score non stop, its like a permanent source of point for you. this is complete non sense.

I want to make things competitive and more fun oriented, i already talked with other guys too on kong and even though thy also doing same but thy also fed up with this point exploit system as there is no fun doing that and after 3-4 round of farming u will be boared.

So mate its for everyone's sake. that not my own interest, i wanna make PVP again interesting. and it feels more satisfactory if u lost a round by fighting in true sense, in present system none of actual raiders wanna raid as its not about skills anymore, all u have to hunt just free flags thts it and no one can match ur speed of point scoring.

Lets accept it and propose some change that actally make this PVP back to challanging and interesting. and there will be plenty of targets which u can raid easily and can score with just descent stuff. and u will actaully learn and enjoy by doing that not by farming non stop free flags.


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#13
Baselab

Baselab
  • 25 posts

I think you meant these 2 posts:

 

http://forum.conarti...q-for-starters/

 

http://forum.conarti...s-for-starters/


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#14
KW_RAIDER

KW_RAIDER
  • 12 posts

I think you meant these 2 posts:

 

http://forum.conarti...q-for-starters/

 

http://forum.conarti...s-for-starters/

yup mate thts one link u posted above and and there is one more thread created by DumbJock that link also contain some raid videos showing very efficient way to beat some defence. and nicely explained by that dude. i will try to search and link here that thread if manage to found. but i am sure tht thead is somewhere on LSD forum only, if u can search by your own.


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#15
KW_RAIDER

KW_RAIDER
  • 12 posts

http://forum.conarti...or-new-raiders/

 

here is that link i was talking abt, made by one of old raider named Dumbjock, watch it m sure u will learn lots of new things and appreciate wot i am trying to expain, specially to those who are new to raiding.


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