Jump to content

Photo

Kongregate - Alliance War


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#21
Ivan

Ivan
  • 557 posts

Just putting it out there that old system required more fuel burning I feel. As targets were gone so fast u had to speed up if nobody home to get another target. Also on kong there's not an issue of speeding to win. TED simply has more active raiders and can score more in the current system.

 

Thats 100% true. This is why I repeatedly said that what we are pointing out here was not about us being salty because we undeservingly are 2nd instead of 1st. We have fewer raiders and even some of those we have are fed up with farming inactive compounds so they refuse to do it, myself included.

TED deserve the win due to their numbers and the fact they dont mind farming such compounds.

 

Issue of speeding to win is not there atm, agree with that as well, but is potential in the future,always there as a possibility. Not for me though, I share oppinion with TanaG on that matter...wholeheartedly.


  • 1

#22
Fredswar1

Fredswar1
  • 320 posts

Just putting it out there that old system required more fuel burning I feel. As targets were gone so fast u had to speed up if nobody home to get another target. Also on kong there's not an issue of speeding to win. TED simply has more active raiders and can score more in the current system.

He's got a point. TED simply has more active Raiders, thus allowing them to score more.


  • 0

#23
TanaG

TanaG
  • 134 posts

Just putting it out there that old system required more fuel burning I feel. As targets were gone so fast u had to speed up if nobody home to get another target. Also on kong there's not an issue of speeding to win. TED simply has more active raiders and can score more in the current system.

Hmm no, it didn't. Simply  because there weren't that many targets to speed for. Now, if you can afford it you basically just speed up every few seconds! When I started raiding, years ago, the target system only allowed one to maybe burn 500 to at most 2k fuel a week (if he was 24/7 in game). Now we're talking about 15k to overt 30k fuel a week and there are players who do that on several accounts. The multiple alts system is also something that should be addressed. The game should allow a reset of levels and a maximum number of accounts per person in my opinion.

Also, TED may have more active raiders but I don't think this was the issue raised by Ivan or makes the problem that he raised less real.


Edited by TanaG, 04 July 2017 - 08:24 AM.

  • 1

#24
chris327

chris327
  • 76 posts

Hmm no, it didn't. Simply because there weren't that many targets to speed for. Now, if you can afford it you basically just speed up every few seconds! When I started raiding, years ago, the target system only allowed one to maybe burn 500 to at most 2k fuel a week (if he was 24/7 in game). Now we're talking about 15k to overt 30k fuel a week and there are players who do that on several accounts. The multiple alts system is also something that should be addressed. The game should allow a reset of levels and a maximum number of accounts per person in my opinion.
Also, TED may have more active raiders but I don't think this was the issue raised by Ivan or makes the problem that he raised less real.



That's just stupid to burn that much. We don't have ppl on kong doing that. I agree though you can non stop speedup now to grab targets and they never run out. The old system you had to speedup some just to get a level 3 box even as targets were so slim. But yea the new system allows you to spend unlimited fuel to win if you want.
  • 2

#25
Furryicecubes

Furryicecubes
  • 143 posts

Just wanted to poke my head in here and say. I told you so.

 

Raiding on kong was dead years ago. We all knew it then and we all know it now.

 

Alts killed PVP. Especially under the old system, any newbie that joined a top 4 alliance was farmed relentlessly by stupidly OP alts that they couldn't hope to beat. Then they couldn't score for shit other than hitting 3 - 5 points, which is demoralising as hell knowing that your first 5 raids did nothing but take you to a net 0 situation.

 

Going back to that scoring system would completely screw over both ARA and TED on kong, and leave SP as untouchable at the top of the pile. You all know this. Why argue for the old system without recognising the inherent issues that we all whined about at the time?

 

Yes trashed pounds should be worth less, but you work with what you have. Try recruiting players, I just went back and counted and I count 12 alts (of players already in SP) in SP that I'm confident of saying that they are alts. That's out of 26 members. If the problem is that TED / ARA have more and more active raiders then there must be some out there that can be brought on board.

 

Yes there are very few active heavy raiders, but we all contributed to that. Every time it was tried to be discussed it was knocked back as not needed.  See the earlier point about alts.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, PVP on this server is screwed, and will remain screwed, my suggestion at this point would be to merge Kong with AG/FB (if possible) which would revitalize the game significantly. A dump of maybe 50 highly active players into AG would help there, and the Kong players would get a nice active server to play on.

 

And yeah, this comes across as massively salty, because let's be honest, it is.


  • 6

#26
tingadabopper

tingadabopper
  • 25 posts

Furry: "Going back to that scoring system would completely screw over both ARA and TED on kong, and leave SP as untouchable at the top of the pile. You all know this. Why argue for the old system without recognising the inherent issues that we all whined about at the time?"

 

mors: "With the old system, we were only able to score from competitive alliance, lower ranked alliances gave 0-1 points since it was based off of the alliance rank.

Now, the rank doesn't matter and the wars are won by scoring free flags, rather than competing alliances vs alliances.

That's the issue were referring to."

 

That was another point I was trying to make lol. Be less targets too, we already complain how few targets there are lol.


  • 0

#27
Ivan

Ivan
  • 557 posts

Nobody was suggesting reverting back to old system, simply pointing out the flaws of the current one.

 

As much as old system was hard on new raiders in terms of them being able to score points, this system is way harder in terms of them ever becoming a real raider.

Active raiders who spend hours daily playing the game and engage themselves enough to learn all the intricate details of PvP in this game have always been rare.

 

When you and me were starting... we were forced to learn because there were no abandoned compounds worth points. Even the easier compounds let you learn stuff and basic raiding strategies.

 

And again

"Nobody was suggesting reverting back to old system, simply pointing out the flaws of the current one."


  • 1

#28
tingadabopper

tingadabopper
  • 25 posts

Furry, good point about alts actually lol. Never though of that.

 

"Alts killed PVP. Especially under the old system, any newbie that joined a top 4 alliance was farmed relentlessly by stupidly OP alts that they couldn't hope to beat. Then they couldn't score for shit other than hitting 3 - 5 points, which is demoralising as hell knowing that your first 5 raids did nothing but take you to a net 0 situation."


  • 1

#29
Furryicecubes

Furryicecubes
  • 143 posts

Nobody was suggesting reverting back to old system, simply pointing out the flaws of the current one.

 

As much as old system was hard on new raiders in terms of them being able to score points, this system is way harder in terms of them ever becoming a real raider.

Active raiders who spend hours daily playing the game and engage themselves enough to learn all the intricate details of PvP in this game have always been rare.

 

When you and me were starting... we were forced to learn because there were no abandoned compounds worth points. Even the easier compounds let you learn stuff and basic raiding strategies.

 

And again

"Nobody was suggesting reverting back to old system, simply pointing out the flaws of the current one."

 

The continual reference to "won the war without taking flags from their direct opposition" brings the point of the old system Ivan, you know this. Why does it matter if your insanely stacked 3 or 4 year old accounts aren't being beaten by the new players unless you're arguing for the old system of points based on alliance point differentials.

 

Also, mors has clearly called for some semblance of the old system unless tinga is misquoting him, as has jack in the other thread.

 

And please, we never started the same way. I raided from level 17 on my first account same as jack, not ran a scavving main to 50 then started an alt to raid. Yes, you dealt with OP alts, but as an alt, not as a pure newbie that was having to beg/borrow/steal bandages and gauze from alliance mates simply to be able to raid. At least in the new system people are constantly farmed because they're 1 of about 6 targets for multiple raiders.

 

You all keep mentioning the system without looking at the underlying cause, or without wanting to look at it. Don't get me wrong, I'm as guilty of it as most, but the problem lies with the ability to constantly cycle alts.

 

There is no point to learning how to raid when being skilled at raiding STILL means you can't beat the top raiders, the reason you can't beat the top raiders isn't because you're not good enough, it's because they're packing 10 uni lrs, plus 10 uni armours / high hp vests / scouter glasses / scouter armours etc etc.

 

A new player cannot afford this level of gear without dumping insane amounts of prem keys into the game. At what 3 - 5 prems per good LR you're talking about needing about 150 prems to raid up to mid level 40's and still be beating alts. (guns / vests / glasses / armour) or spending loads on fuel to craft the goods yourself. The alternative is to buy the dmu and auto for months for a couple of weeks raiding till you level up to the next lot of weapons. Then after 2 / 3 weeks raiding you're back to a couple of months of farming to get the next round of stuff.

 

I'd challenge anyone to hit a properly set up defense of an alt with full OP loadouts using nothing but looted gear, so sighted sporties, normal glasses / hp vests. Then consider the pain they feel at constantly being rolled on defence by those hoards of alts.

 

Edited to add:

 

As for "go craft fals" that's fine, tell me the last time you did a fal crafting run for the amount of fuel a new player can reasonably gather in the time it takes to get to the level to craft them.

 

The problem is not that new players should be able to instantly compete with old players that have put the time in, but that new players don't even get a chance to learn the game before being thrown into the shark tank that is alt raiding.


Edited by Furryicecubes, 10 July 2017 - 08:20 AM.

  • 3

#30
tingadabopper

tingadabopper
  • 25 posts

I didn't mis-quote that was copy and pasted. ^^


  • 0

#31
Ivan

Ivan
  • 557 posts

Again, only pointing out that abandoned inactive trashed compounds being worth war points is ridiculous. Thats the whole story of my OP, and thats what most of SP players that are here on forum think,and some from AG, and also there are others who feel the same way,who arent even raiding, but are veteran players.

 

I do not suggest any kind of change, because I do not know what can be done to make it better. I know the answer actually,but its out of our hands. Inactives worth 0, and many active players,raiders of all types, OP veterans, mid-tier under a year playing raiders, newbies..all of them in high numbers...people who are actually playing the game.

 

You dont have to tell me about difficulties of going against OP alts with green SS, and eventually blue FALs, and eventually unis of your own. Been there,done that..same like all the other veteran raiders out there. Some made it easier for themselves by paying real money. I didnt even do that. Only once supported the game by buying a fuel bundle, just out of desire to support it.

 

I dont know why its so hard to say that inactive compounds being woth more than is 0 is just stupid. Because it just is..simple.

 

EDIT:

 

About alt cycling. I dont know honestly, is it good or is it bad. There are negative sides to it, but we would also have massive negative consequences if we didnt have that option. To only mention that absoultely all items under lvl 50 would be worthless and pointless and useless,apart from being a part of collection or something similarly insignificant.

There is other stuff, PvP stuff, makes the game more deep if your strategizing in raids involves weapons with all kinds of different ranges and dmg outputs. Just more to learn,more to do..etc.

 

Only real problem is a newcomer. But show me an online multiplayer game which doesnt have that problem. Its a perfectly normal problem. Some would even argue that it is a healthy and fun challenge. Striving to learn, striving to loot, so one day you achieve what you wanted. All the raiders who are today proud of their inventory I believe had the same view of that "problem".


Edited by Ivan, 10 July 2017 - 03:45 PM.

  • 0

#32
Ivan

Ivan
  • 557 posts

And please, we never started the same way. I raided from level 17 on my first account same as jack, not ran a scavving main to 50 then started an alt to raid. Yes, you dealt with OP alts, but as an alt, not as a pure newbie that was having to beg/borrow/steal bandages and gauze from alliance mates simply to be able to raid. At least in the new system people are constantly farmed because they're 1 of about 6 targets for multiple raiders.

 

You were already there when I came in. Cant remember all the details, but let me try and give some highlights.

 

I remember 20 failed raids against ironmaidenxp in my 2nd month of raiding. I remember failed raids in my first few months against KBF alts. Without being able to score against alts i was able to contribute 400-600 wp every week. Found the niche which was available even then. But those points were scored against players who played the game. So it let me learn raiding, defenders were healthy and in cover and there were all kind of defensive setups,most badly done, but still, it let me learn.

 

I really dont see any problem in that, as I mentioned above, play the game to achieve something, raiding of alts can wait. But this is not discussion at all. Discussion was only about ghost over a year abandoned compound being worth 20-40 points.


  • 1

#33
Furryicecubes

Furryicecubes
  • 143 posts

You were already there when I came in. Cant remember all the details, but let me try and give some highlights.

 

I remember 20 failed raids against ironmaidenxp in my 2nd month of raiding. I remember failed raids in my first few months against KBF alts. Without being able to score against alts i was able to contribute 400-600 wp every week. Found the niche which was available even then. But those points were scored against players who played the game. So it let me learn raiding, defenders were healthy and in cover and there were all kind of defensive setups,most badly done, but still, it let me learn.

 

I really dont see any problem in that, as I mentioned above, play the game to achieve something, raiding of alts can wait. But this is not discussion at all. Discussion was only about ghost over a year abandoned compound being worth 20-40 points.

 

And that's as an alt. Not as a new player.

 

Back at that point if you were contributing 400 - 600 points a week you were either beating alts or you were 2 manning 5 pointers given that from day 3 or so it was alts or 3-5 pointers only. I seem to remember your first account was pretty well equipped compared to a pure noob, you were rocking a couple of uni sporties, nicely crafted HP vests etc. plus you had a main account feeding you nades / meds as I mentioned before.

 

To an outsider who's seen this complaining time and time again, this thread is about 1 thing and 1 thing only. Bruised pride. The constant "without taking flags from a direct competitor" and whining about TED hitting inactives / empties / levelled compounds comes across as pure whining. You didn't give a toss when you were at the top, as soon as you lose a round you fought hard on the complaints come out. If I sound pissed here it's because I am. I still remember being told paying to support the game is like bribery.

 

I9GwA42.png

 

So don't tell me it's not sour grapes that you guys lost. It is, I've seen it before, as have plenty of others over on Kong. eduted to add The timing of the thread says it all as well. Raise these issues before they start to affect you, raise things prior to losing to a more active alliance, but you don't and won't as long as it's either to your benefit or at least not causing you a problem.

 

With regards PVP and scoring:

 

You're ignoring the underlying problem though Ivan, as I said before. There is no point (imo) in having a discussion on the problems with PVP without addressing the underlying issue. No player wants to address it since everyone abuses it. Con won't address it because it gives a nice fuel drain (trading stuff to alts), it brings him money in terms of people buying prems to purchase inflated priced lrs, it brings him money from people buying fuel to buy the WF to stop themselves getting bitchslapped every 12 hours and their stuff broken / stolen by some asshole with a max range LR and scouter glasses.

 

The problem is, and will always be that alt cycling simply consolidates the power into the hands of the very few older players since they have the very tip top gear and can easily slaughter any defence except that of another OP alt (which makes it a little harder, but not excessively so). 

 

Any change to PVP that limits the target pools will simply return the power into the hands of alts, and given that SP (at this point in time) has 26 members of which I know at least 11 are alts of players already in SP, and 1 other is an alt account of a player in a different alliance. The changes you want are changes that will simply hand you easy victories since hardly anyone else can score from you.

 

As to your comment on it devaluing stuff below level 50, stuff like sporties / svds / fals are ONLY high valued because people buy them for their alts. That's the sole driver behind their value. Banning alts would completely wipe that slate and mean that a newbie that looted a uni SS wouldn't be instantly innundated with "SELL ME DAT LR!!!!111!!" Players would be able to raid each other efffectively since none of them would be stupidly over powered (unless the current stockpiles were handed down ofc).


Edited by Furryicecubes, 10 July 2017 - 04:47 PM.

  • 1

#34
Ivan

Ivan
  • 557 posts

We have different perspectives completely, that is allowed as far as I am concerned.

About the "timing", its only a matter of you not believing me (us). Well I will speak only for myself, no, my pride isnt bruised at all, i strive to live without pride which I consider is a foolish thing in all forms that it can take when it comes to it being about yourself.

 

I know for a fact that we complained about inactive compound raiding before last two weeks. Kong chat can confirm that often times raiding was described as dull and stupid. So being no1 or no2 really is no issue here,feeling is the same. Only thing that sparked this (and other) thread is what happened. That someone actually managed to take the round mostly based (so not completely based) on raiding trashed compounds. And for what I know,its the first time in history of Kong wars that it happened, so I felt it deserves to be recognised.

 

If that is forbidden,well..i dont think it is.

 

@ alt raiding : started raiding with my main..didnt have unis for several months, was scoring 400-600 per week,those are numbers I remember,although 600 probably didnt happen that often, result is somewhere in the middle.

 

I didnt give any comments about how you spend your money, no matter how i feel about spending money in this game and on what exactly,everyone is naturally free to do what he/she wants to do in that regard. And this thread definitely wasnt about that either. Its about abandoned compounds being worth 20-40 points :P

Which,yes we were mentioning before TED won 2 weeks in a row, since i came back (3 months I think) its constantly a theme in chat.


  • 1

#35
Furryicecubes

Furryicecubes
  • 143 posts

We have different perspectives completely, that is allowed as far as I am concerned.

About the "timing", its only a matter of you not believing me (us). Well I will speak only for myself, no, my pride isnt bruised at all, i strive to live without pride which I consider is a foolish thing in all forms that it can take when it comes to it being about yourself.

 

I know for a fact that we complained about inactive compound raiding before last two weeks. Kong chat can confirm that often times raiding was described as dull and stupid. So being no1 or no2 really is no issue here,feeling is the same. Only thing that sparked this (and other) thread is what happened. That someone actually managed to take the round mostly based (so not completely based) on raiding trashed compounds. And for what I know,its the first time in history of Kong wars that it happened, so I felt it deserves to be recognised.

 

If that is forbidden,well..i dont think it is.

 

@ alt raiding : started raiding with my main..didnt have unis for several months, was scoring 400-600 per week,those are numbers I remember,although 600 probably didnt happen that often, result is somewhere in the middle.

 

I didnt give any comments about how you spend your money, no matter how i feel about spending money in this game and on what exactly,everyone is naturally free to do what he/she wants to do in that regard. And this thread definitely wasnt about that either. Its about abandoned compounds being worth 20-40 points :P

Which,yes we were mentioning before TED won 2 weeks in a row, since i came back (3 months I think) its constantly a theme in chat.

 

Sorry Ivan but that's bull. Your main looted 2 uni 107s not long before you joined SP so if you were raiding at 55 you were definitely rocking unis. I specifically remember it because you looted them both in a park in the same mission and everyone was jelly as hell :D

 

The spending comment was to highlight the way in which a number (not all) members of SP react to losing rounds, and that's badly. Losing to KBF with active experienced alt raiders was bad enough, losing to TED? I can well imagine the salt. Hence my disbelief that this is anything but a "we lost but we didn't really lose" thread.

 

You know what, you play the game in front of you. You don't get the decide the rules, you don't get to make people behave how you want. I've been told this before plenty of times. I've watched SP run players out of the game because they didn't like their raiding style. So sorry, but my opinion on this is suck it up and live with it.

 

Finally, we're not in a current round (plus I'm flagged) so I can't grab average points of targets but to complain about people hitting trashed players is a bit rich given the points averages of the list you posted. The only account in there that's rocking an average of over 60 is your mid 30's alt (in 7th place on the list). That's taking a straight points/flags average, so not accounting for missions / defense points. Correct me if I'm wrong but the last time I checked points for 55 raiders the average for active was around 75 - 80 points per target. So there's a few number of trashed defences in there for your guys as well, I'm sure you'll justify that with "Everyone else is so we have to to compete". Well, if you're doing it, but not doing it as well as TED then no, you don't get to whine and try take the moral high ground.

 

N.B. Congrats to TED for showing that activity and numbers can beat a stacked deck with the right conditions ;)

 

Oh Con, sort your emoticon limit out. A man has needs.


  • 1

#36
Ivan

Ivan
  • 557 posts

Well if you know me, you know i never used those 107s :P

 

We congratulated TED, Chris to them as collective, I focused more on Whooper, and stated multiple times its not about TED,and its not about criticising players who go for easy available targets. I said that I would do the same if I was in their spot,we all said that. We only criticized the fact that abandoned compounds are worth points. It doesnt make sense to anyone who is looking at it objectively.

 

I am sorry you seemingly cannot separate those 2 things. I wouldnt carry on with this, doesnt seem like we can understand eachother, no matter how much respect i feel for you as a veteran player and old time adversary..from the good days, when we were all "young" and enjoying the game. At that point something like this would definitely be able to make me salty. At the point where I cared...


  • 1

#37
TanaG

TanaG
  • 134 posts

Ivan is probably one of the few people I met in this game who makes a whole lot of sense! Wish we played on the same server lol


  • 0

#38
Ivan

Ivan
  • 557 posts

Thx for kind words, as Furry mentioned that would be the only real thing to change something, have Kong added to AG, but we all know how that is going to happen.


  • 0

#39
Furryicecubes

Furryicecubes
  • 143 posts

Well if you know me, you know i never used those 107s :P

 

We congratulated TED, Chris to them as collective, I focused more on Whooper, and stated multiple times its not about TED,and its not about criticising players who go for easy available targets. I said that I would do the same if I was in their spot,we all said that. We only criticized the fact that abandoned compounds are worth points. It doesnt make sense to anyone who is looking at it objectively.

 

I am sorry you seemingly cannot separate those 2 things. I wouldnt carry on with this, doesnt seem like we can understand eachother, no matter how much respect i feel for you as a veteran player and old time adversary..from the good days, when we were all "young" and enjoying the game. At that point something like this would definitely be able to make me salty. At the point where I cared...

 

And you're still not focusing on the underlying issue, in fact you've brushed it off repeatedly.

 

Consider this:

 

Inactives are completely removed from the target pool.

Target pool reduces by what? 50%? 75%?

 

Target pool basically becomes ARA / SP / TED.

 

SP (since it's 90% stacked alts or old players) farm the crap out of ARA / TED. TED beat what they can in ARA (when there's a target), ARA do the same to TED.

 

Neither ARA nor TED can beat SP who are running round 2 / 3 manning most targets.

 

Thus leaving SP as untouchable at the top of the pile.

 

Tell me that's not the situation that will result Ivan? Then tell me why this thread shouldn't be seen as bitching in light of that fact.

 

It's the same old story, someone won because they won't play the game the way we want them to so the game needs to be changed. It's the same story with people being bullied out the game because you (SP) don't like their play style.


  • 3

#40
tingadabopper

tingadabopper
  • 25 posts

I guess everyone has valid points, but Ivan, as much as I like you, you MUST be able to see the timing of all these posts and public complaining and how what some of you guys are saying comes across to anyone with half a brain cell? Whether people admit it or not, everyone outside SP sees it the same who has read this post or read public chat.

 

Whether you want the old raiding system back so you guys can dominate without any glimpse of even slight competition or not (Just to add, I know that's not what you're asking for) but that's how it comes across so what you're actually saying is partially ignored as soon as people conclude how it looks to them. 

 

If it is just out of the blue and not because TED are first, then you guys have the worst timing of anything or anyone ever to exist in any time period ever and I'm sorry. 

 

 

Anyway, this will be my last post but to finish, despite what I've said, I don't actually think you guys are salty about TED, I think what you're saying comes across differently to what you actually mean and is being misconstrued due to timing & wording (especially timing) but most people will generally look at things head on (I'm guilty of that as well) and not really look into or thinking about what someone actually means so I'm not trying to be horrible or anything to anyone in SP, I like a lot of you guys, helped me a lot with island when I hit 50, loaning me hot ass gear until I got my own for it, help with raiding etc but that's just how it comes across to me and I think most people reading and truthfully it's not a good look.


  • 0