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Suppression Bug

suppression bug

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#1
Ayshford

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Moved comment here from the announcement thread since it bug fixing was really not the original topic. People please add in any info you can to help convince con that this is a bug (not just a misunderstood feature) and help give data for fixing the bug. 

 

Con, on 12 Nov 2013 - 16:33, said:snapback.png

Door blocking will get a fix today.

 

The pathing needs investigating, they're probably avoiding stuff unnecessarily. 

 

Suppression, I think is a miscommunication of how that works and how you guys understand it. We're going to look at it.

 

The only way you can kill some one under suppression is if they were actively shooting their gun when suppressed. Things I have done to test this: 1) fighting an indoor defense shooting the barricades to suppress defenders from an angle where defenders can not shoot back. Once defenders are suppressed I rush in a melee to kill them, over 1 minute attacking a single suppressed defender gave all dodges. 2) Defender had two survivors hiding behind water towers (ie they were placed at a flag and had no cover) I got in los of one and shot and killed him. The survivor next to the now dead one was not in los but became suppressed due to the fire on the defender adjacent to him. I rush 2 guns in to kill this last defender while he is still suppressed.  The two guns were able to keep him suppressed but i could not take a gun off him to loot the flag and he would not die, after 2 minutes of shooting this defender when standing right next to him the clock ran out and I lost the raid. 3) The "standard" suppression bug.  The defender stops shooting to reload his gun and becomes suppressed before the reload animation finishes. The defender then becomes unkillable from any angle or range. 

note: grenades still work on the invincible suppressed defenders, just guns and melee do not. This makes me think it is likely a dodge issue since for melee it shows all dodges (guns do not show why a blow does not land).  Explosives being AOE do not seem to have a dodge chance and thus bypass the problem. 

 

Thats all the useful info i can think of right now. Hope it helps. 

 

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#2
Steve

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If you could take a video of what you're describing, that would help immensely. Are these 'invincible' survivors able to shoot back at you? Or are they just permanently locked in a suppressed state? Do they show the suppression icon and play the cowering animation?



#3
Ayshford

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ive never done video on my comp before but i could try.

 

-the invincible survivors do not shoot back because they are under suppression, if let out of suppression (ie i stop shooting them) they will shoot back and no longer be invincible (they are only unkillable while activily suppressed, and suppression seems to work normally in every other way)

 

-they are not permanently locked into suppression.

 

-yes the suppression icon shows and they do the cowering animation. interestingly when you fully suppress a reloading survivor (the supression icon reaches 100%) the survivor does not go straight into supression animation, instead they finish the reloading animation and "click" (a jittiry motion) into suppression animation.


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#4
Steve

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I've just pushed a client patch live. I'm not sure it'll fix all the problems, because I couldn't replicate them on my machine just yet. But it should fix that 'jittery' motion you mentioned. Will continue to look into it.



#5
Ayshford

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Ok cool, thanks for clearing those up. 

 

- Stupid question, but you know that attacking directly also applies suppression, just not as much, right?

- Are the suppressed survivors in their suppressed state when hit?

- We might have a rule in there for reloading making you invulnerable and if the suppression is interfering then that might be the cause

 

Either way, we'll re-examine with this info.

 

Ive got a screen recorder working and will try to get you some videos.  I have not done any testing since the patch, but i can see that there are some major changes possible bugs with it. I'll save my comments and notes until i get a chance to do more extensive testing and have videos.


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#6
Ayshford

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http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

 

first suppression bug video. The recorder is crap and the video is buggy and freezes at the end. What you can see here is the defender in the tower is suppressed while reloading, the defender to the left of the tower is suppressed while standing and shooting.  The defender to the left is then advanced upon and killed, the tower is then advanced upon and shot for a few minutes by 4 attackers in optimal range with no hits landing. What you dont see at the end of the video (stupid recorder!) is I pull back all the attackers and let the defender in the tower out of suppression. I re engaged the tower, suppressed the tower defender while he was standing and shooting, then advanced and killed the tower defender. 

 

In short, the defender was only unkillable when suppression was achieved during reload graphic. 

 

Im working on getting better vids, but the video program is dificult and it messes with my computer making controling raids difficult... gotta do some actual raiding to keep up with the war as well. 


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#7
BrianBore

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If you could take a video of what you're describing, that would help immensely. Are these 'invincible' survivors able to shoot back at you? Or are they just permanently locked in a suppressed state? Do they show the suppression icon and play the cowering animation?

Copied my original post from here, seeing as this thread is about the topic in question.

 

Hezm - yeah, it's a tricky one because we're looking at it from the code and not seeing how it's possible. If someone can give us video of it happening, it'd be a huge help.

As requested: Due to mass viewings, made this private for now, can change it back upon request.

Notes:

 - At 16 seconds: I target a defender (who is armed with a gun), using just 1 of my survivors.

 - At 22 seconds: defenders return fire.

 - At 26 seconds: the defender who I am targeting runs out of ammo and begins the reload phase.

 - At 27 seconds I return fire with my other survivors, to overwhelm that defender, to cause full suppression while he is reloading.

 - At 28 seconds: defender is now fully suppressed and invulnerable from gun fire.[BUG ACTIVE]

 - Remaining video to demonstrate the extent of the defenders invulnerability.

 - At around 2 minutes: I have all but one of my survivors surrounding the defender, close proximity, high dps weapons.

 

Side Note: Just take a look at the AI, and how incompetent it is, I have almost all of my team stood in the open right next to the enemy, and they ignore everyone but my tank for > 90% of the video.


Edited by BrianBore, 24 November 2013 - 11:41 PM.

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#8
Ayshford

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Wow brian, that is some serious tanking. Can you do that with m-24s or does it only work with the smgs and what not you had in the vid?

 

edit: also, how do you embed videos here?


Edited by Ayshford, 14 November 2013 - 11:34 PM.

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#9
BrianBore

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If you could take a video of what you're describing, that would help immensely. Are these 'invincible' survivors able to shoot back at you? Or are they just permanently locked in a suppressed state? Do they show the suppression icon and play the cowering animation?

The issue is that there is a disparity in terms of defender behavior, Type A and Type B, see the following:

Example Scenario Image:

2sajvj6.jpg

Behavior Type A (Considered 'normal' behavior by most raiders.)

 - Raider clicks to fire at Defender #1 (D1) with each gun wielding survivor (S1, S2, S3, S4, S5).

 - Defender(s) fire back when D1's suppression circle reaches about 1/3 full.

     - Note: D1 is relatively easy to hit/damage in this state.

 - D1 reaches full suppression (full yellow circle), crouch animation begins.

     - Note: D1 reached full suppression while still having ammo in the clip, this occurs 90% of the time).

 - D1 is now fully suppressed and hiding behind cover, yet he still takes damage from the attackers.

      - Note: D1 is now relatively hard to hit/damage in this state, but can still be killed even from a full frontal attack.

 - D1 is killed while fully suppressed/crouched, even though he was completely behind cover.

#Note: This is the standard, it is the behavior we have come to expect; however, as indicated by Con this behavior is apparently incorrect, as cover is meant to make the defender immune from the front and sides while fully suppressed (though ever since I began raiding Type A has been the norm).

 

Behavior Type B (Considered 'buggy' behavior by most raiders, happens infrequently but can be replicated deliberately by following this.)

 - Raider clicks to attack/fire at D1 with just one or two gun wielding survivors (e.g. the raider's S1 (tank), and S2 (fire support)).

     - Note: The aim being to avoid suppressing the D1 until he has ran out of ammo and begins the reload animation.

 - Defender(s) fire back when D1's suppression circle reaches about 1/3 full.

     - Note: D1 is relatively easy to hit/damage in this state.

 - KEY POINT Raider waits until D1 starts to reload, then manually targets D1 with rest of his survivors to force suppression at this point.

 - D1 now reaches full suppression (full yellow circle) while in the process of reloading.

 - D1's crouch animation is delayed despite being fully suppressed, once the animation completes the crouch animation begins.

 - D1 is now invulnerable, and can not be killed from gun fire from the front or sides.

#Note: This is considered to be bug induced behavior by most raiders, as it is not that common (unless following the above instructions to deliberately replicate it); however, as indicated by Con this behavior is apparently correct, though he stated it is meant to occur whenever a defender is suppressed rather than just being suppressed during the reload animation.

 

I've tried to be clear, if you need me to elaborate on some of the points just ask. It should be fairly easy to replicate both behavior types, as I am able to replicate both consistently.


Edited by BrianBore, 15 November 2013 - 12:31 AM.

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#10
BrianBore

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Wow brian, that is some serious tanking. Can you do that with m-24s or does it only work with the smgs and what not you had in the vid?

 

edit: also, how do you embed videos here?

Serious tanking was enabled due to the new OP vests, but I gave up voicing my concerns on them, they are ridiculously OP (as shown by math, not opinion), but whatever. :)

And yes it can be done with M24s, I only used SMGs and LMGs etc to demonstrate very high dps at close proximity to show the extent of the defenders invulnerability.

 

I use the bbcode {video}url-here{/video}

E.g: {video}www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_WcDweNI84{/video}

But obviously use the square brackets, not these curly ones.


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#11
Ayshford

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Thanks for the info brian. Also, what screen recorder do you use? I tried Cam studio but the videos all come out broken, so now im looking for a new free recorder. 


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#12
Hezm

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One more thing to brians type b. example. Sometimes defender who comes suppressed during reloading and becoming invincible doesn't start shooting back after you've let suppression fade. They are just croutching there doing nothing, and when shot again they just become suppressed.

I haven't noticed what might cause such behaviour. They only start shooting again if you run your survivor within that defenders range. Before you could kill those bugged defendes by waiting suppression to fade and start shooting again hoping that they wouldn't get suppressed again during reload.

Did you notice that suppression circle doesn't show up before it's full? That became after latest update.


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#13
BrianBore

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Spoiler

In regards to this post that I made earlier, I just thought I would clarify that whenever I am talking about suppressing the defender, I do not mean holding down the space bar to actively suppress; instead I mean regular suppression that occurs as a side-effect of directly attacking the defender. Please take that into account as it affects your ability to replicate the two behaviors.

 

Also I thought I would re-post this here as this is the more appropriate thread.

This is an example of Behavior Type A (Considered 'normal' behavior by most raiders).

Okay I would have liked to have found a newer video, but it's on another HDD, so this one will have to do:

 

http://youtube.googl...d=116&version=3

Notes:

 - At 1:47: I target the defender.

 - At 1:49: The defender takes some damage and becomes fully suppressed.

 - At 1:50: You can clearly see the defender is fully suppressed, full yellow circle, and crouched behind his cover item.

 - At 1:53: The defender takes another hit, despite being fully suppressed, and he dies as a result of that.

 - So as you can see from this one example I attacked and killed a defender from the front, who was fully suppressed.

 

Sorry the video isn't newer, but it will have to do for now.

So with this addition you can now see both behaviors in action.

 

The question is: Which do you consider to be the bug?

The raiders consider "Type B behavior" (invulnerable suppressed defenders) to be the bug, but based on what was recently posted by Con it now seems "Type A behavior" (defenders taking damage while fully suppressed) may be the bug.


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#14
Steve

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... but based on what was recently posted by Con it now seems "Type A behavior" (defenders taking damage while fully suppressed) may be the bug.

 

Correct. I think this was the cause of confusion between us and the reports. However, saying that, you should still be able to kill a suppressed survivor with a melee weapon or via flanking, so there may possibly be a bug there too. We're currently doing some testing to see what's up, and to decide on what the final behaviour should be - so nothing is set in stone just yet.

 

Just know we're looking into it, and we should have a solution early next week (it's Friday evening here).



#15
Hezm

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The raiders consider "Type B behavior" (invulnerable suppressed defenders) to be the bug, but based on what was recently posted by Con it now seems "Type A behavior" (defenders taking damage while fully suppressed) may be the bug.

 

Correct. I think this was the cause of confusion between us and the reports. However, saying that, you should still be able to kill a suppressed survivor with a melee weapon or via flanking, so there may possibly be a bug there too. We're currently doing some testing to see what's up, and to decide on what the final behaviour should be - so nothing is set in stone just yet.

 

Just know we're looking into it, and we should have a solution early next week (it's Friday evening here).

 

Are you saying here that you will ''fix'' this bug by making defenders becoming invincible when they get suppressed no matter if they are reloading or not? (When shot from front of barricade).

Think about some players sets all his guys so their backs are against compound backwall, there's no way you can shoot them from behind the barricade. And if they have armors equipped it's even harder to take them down in time no matter if you find right angle to shoot or not.

Please try to understand that people have had enough hard time with this rule already when it have occurred only during reload. If it will be ''fixed'' the way i mentioned above it just kills raiding.

There are already setups like that and when more and more players fin out how OP that rule is i bet soon most of defences are set up like i described.

 

edit: Add to that there's very crappy/ bugged sight through compound doors. Normally survivors turn automatically towards enemy when they are in line of sight, Through doors it doesn't happen.

Also normally my survivors starts shooting automatically when enemy is inside the range circle but if enemy is on the other side of door i need to force him to shoot enemy as it were outside the effective range circle.

Abd yes, you can kill fully suppressed survior with melee or grenades but there's no many setups where you could send you melee guy to whack them down without getting shot by other defenders. Neither nobody can carry so much grenades once that all defenders could be fragged down.


Edited by Hezm, 15 November 2013 - 10:43 PM.

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#16
Zingman

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From a largely outside point of view (Note: I haven't raided since the Mr. X event -- just don't find it fun or worth my time personally), if you were to tell me "One of this videos shows a bugged situation, and one of the videos shows an unbugged situation", and then told me to pick the one that was bugged, I'd choose the one where the survivors were being downed behind cover as being "bugged", not the other way around as most experienced raiders are identifying.

 

It doesn't make logical sense that you can can down a survivor quickly and easily when they are crouched behind high cover simply by continuing to fire.   If you can, then there is no point to cover -- none.  High cover, low cover, if you can down a survivor hiding behind cover in under 5 seconds, there's little to no difference.  The only reason then to build defensive structures (other than watchtowers for the range bonus) is for the security rating for morale.  It just doesn't make sense from an "outside" standpoint.

 

From an outside point of view.  The "logical" tactic would be to suppress a target long enough to get close enough with a grenade and/or melee.   An experienced raider would have to state the viability of such a tactic, that's something that I can not do.


Edited by Zingman, 15 November 2013 - 10:38 PM.

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#17
The Architect

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Correct. I think this was the cause of confusion between us and the reports. However, saying that, you should still be able to kill a suppressed survivor with a melee weapon or via flanking, so there may possibly be a bug there too. We're currently doing some testing to see what's up, and to decide on what the final behaviour should be - so nothing is set in stone just yet.

 

Just know we're looking into it, and we should have a solution early next week (it's Friday evening here).

Was the "cover" taken account? What if instead of attacking the survivor, the damage is still directed on the barricade itself even if the target is suppressed.


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#18
DJfriede

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Correct. I think this was the cause of confusion between us and the reports. However, saying that, you should still be able to kill a suppressed survivor with a melee weapon or via flanking, so there may possibly be a bug there too. We're currently doing some testing to see what's up, and to decide on what the final behaviour should be - so nothing is set in stone just yet.

 

Just know we're looking into it, and we should have a solution early next week (it's Friday evening here).

 

For the love of what is holy PLEASE don't make them invulnerable! I can guarantee you that everybody with at least half a brain will resort to pillow forts and become (almost) impossible to raid. Suppressed defenders being invulnerable behind cover might make sense in reality, but it breaks the neck of raiding.

 

As of now, pillow forts can be raided quite reliably with the right tactic. However, in most cases there is not much time left for more than killing defenders and taking the flag. I really don't see how you would raid a pillow fort with the suppression "bug" being the norm, not the exception. There is simply no getting behind enemy survivors when they are spread over all corners of the compound.


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#19
Brus_D

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For the love of what is holy PLEASE don't make them invulnerable! I can guarantee you that everybody with at least half a brain will resort to pillow forts and become (almost) impossible to raid. Suppressed defenders being invulnerable behind cover might make sense in reality, but it breaks the neck of raiding.

 

As of now, pillow forts can be raided quite reliably with the right tactic. However, in most cases there is not much time left for more than killing defenders and taking the flag. I really don't see how you would raid a pillow fort with the suppression "bug" being the norm, not the exception. There is simply no getting behind enemy survivors when they are spread over all corners of the compound.

 

Tbh, pillow forts are (an not terribly effective, but nevertheless annoying) attempt at a response to the extreme target fixation of defenders (in the video above, it's what looks like the bug, heh). LOS & grenades still work, and/or could be adjusted to make pillow forts less desireable.


Edited by Brus_D, 16 November 2013 - 12:18 AM.

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#20
Hezm

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It doesn't make logical sense that you can can down a survivor quickly and easily when they are crouched behind high cover simply by continuing to fire.   If you can, then there is no point to cover -- none. 

I don't believe anybody here is suggesting that right way to do it would be that they could be easliy downed when suppressed behind cover. (at least i am not)

It's just ridiculous game killing rule that they become unkillable when shot from front side. I believe people are saying that best and fairest way would be very dramatically reduced chance to hit in said situation but still enemy would be killable, maybe damage reduction too.

I wouldn't want to face enemies that can be downed very easily in any situation, i strarted raiding for challenge after all.

That kind of rule is just too much


Edited by Hezm, 16 November 2013 - 02:21 AM.

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