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#1
ligoccogil

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1.) It would be nice if it was possible to automatically lock all threads until they can get 10 unique upvotes(unique upvotes being all from different IP's/users) before they are open to discussion.

2.) Have a way to cite a source rather than quoting it. And if possible disable locking of all posts except the first one and the last one. As well as adding the option to delete the last post so in the event of a double post you can delete it.

3.) Have a way to respond to a user directly sort of like a private message except it appears in the fourm. An example being If player A says i think Player B likes cats.... but the topic is about venus fly traps. Player B can just reply to player A and tell him to stfu and that cats are retarded with out derailing the topic but at the same time telling player A he's a moron.

4.) Have the creator of a thread assign people to update the original post as things progress. Sort of like what would be a minutes record to keep from having to read thru 40 pages of " Player B likes cats".

5.) As well for players to vote assign a priority level to the topic...... and an importance level. So that way they can still discuss things like this that are a low priority. and discuss other topics that are higher importance to the players

 

 

I know that the main focus is the game, so i'd rate this a low priority. But it's just a few suggestions on how to improve the feedback system. IMO a beta version of a game is garbage unless the feedback system is functional, reliable, and stress free.

 

Update :

Addressing of Concerns about alternate acounts, differnece between rep and suggestion 5, and differnces between PM and #3

 

Additions:

 

6.) Initial proposals(for people to vote on) should be limited to 200 characters or less. The goal being not to hash out an entire idea but to see if the idea is even worth talking about.


Edited by ligoccogil, 04 January 2014 - 10:41 AM.

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#2
The Architect

The Architect
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1.) Not a good idea, for the case of Kronosian, he can just make 10 alts and upvote or downvote the certain thread, immediately killing it unceremoniously.

 

2.) you know the icon on the top right, the speech bubble? Press it, and it will link you to the source. Also, it is your job to provide web links to anything you might want to prove.

 

3.) Yeah i agree. Of course it has been suggested before: http://forum.conarti...iends-unlocked/ +7 Rep too.

 

4.) Yeah, sure collaboration. But more of the time unnecessary, because you can just add your post, and then the OP can just put it on the first post right after.

 

5.) It's called Rep. Even if your version is implemented, it's easy to abuse with multiple accounts.

 

- You might want to contact Con directly. 


Edited by The Architect, 05 January 2014 - 08:23 AM.

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#3
ligoccogil

ligoccogil
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Response to The Architect

 

1.) That is why i said that UNIQUE IP's. I really doubt kronos is as smart as you think he is and using multiple IPs' just to post. Common proxy servers could be black listed in addition to this accounts wanting to upvote should be required to verifiy via email AND have a minimum of a set amount of time active. So you can just make an account and upvote then ditch the account and repeat. Likewise you couldn't make an account and downvote an idea and repeat... to prevent it from ever being discussed. In addition to this the upvotes would be recorded so admin can use common sense when they see paterns. and react accordingly.

1.A) To add on i think that in order to participate in conversation you should have to choose your side For, Against , or Neutral.  So people can keep track of how you stand.

 

 

2.) I did press it... and wish i didn't because it didn't even open in a new tab so it cleared out everything i previously typed about 1..... very annoying But regardless you miss the point. The point is so that you DONT HAVE TO QUOTE SOMEONE. It's trashy, and it takes up space. Take this thread for example. Anyone who read your post has already read everything you quoted to them. There's no reason to repeat it. But if you cite it... then they can click your citation and maybe have a popup of the quote that they cited.  Which is why removing the ability to edit in the fourm would be essential because it prevents people from going back and changing what they said to make someone look foolish. Or a history of updates would work to server space permiting. Perhaps numbering each edit individually for citation purposes.

 

Edit::**Also note, if you click on your name it will scroll up instead of reloading the page. So you could easily click to scroll up and read what i wrote and continue typing. Of coarse this is limited to just one page**
 

3.) What you cited is not what im talking about... i believe you are talking about private messaging. Hence i said something LIKE PM's except they are attached to the actual form. In such that for example this post right here is hidden to everyone else viewing this page EXCEPT you... because you're the one im discussing this with right now. The purpose of this would be to prevent cross talk about "you're an alt of kronos" the only reason people would say that is to get public attention. And you cant really tell them they cant because tey don't have a way to tell the person their feelings in private. but we all know it's being done to derail a thread.

 

4.) Not sure what your response to this is... but have you seen some of the topics going on? keeping in mind that the goal of this is only to allow disscussion of what people WANT to talk about. So it will provide a lot of valuable infomation on topic. You cant expect to stop people from getting off topic. I have yet to see a forum that has found a way to do this the most common method is to lock the thread.... which is what a lot of people are wanting to kill something they disagree with.

 

5.) Again, we've disscussed this period about unique IPs. The difference here is that you're confusing the point entirely, which is why disccusion rather than argumetns are helpful, The point being You get no advantage to having a high priority item. This isn't about bragging rights. It's a community discussion no one person is responsible for the idea. There is no one taking credit for other peoples work that some people are afraid of.  Right now the REP system just stands to say a few things.. if you like it or hate it.........(or like or hate the person who started the post) The difference with this part of the suggestion is it stands to give the development team some feedback on what they need to pay attention to.


The point being that this is the developers game that's true... it's their buisness... but we're the ones playing it. So we should be more active in providing them a better source of feedback to get this game out of beta...which as i've said prior in other posts a facebook game is always in beta until it's no longer played by anyone. there never is a finished product.


 


Edited by ligoccogil, 04 January 2014 - 09:15 AM.

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#4
PeterTehDumb

PeterTehDumb
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Define Unique IP, I could always use 'ChangeMyIP' anytime.

 

Either way, I doubt IP.Board has features like 1, 4 and 5. Not that I'm an expert of this forum provider. But I don't believe this forum has this kind of mod for it.


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#5
The Architect

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Response to The Architect

 

1.) That is why i said that UNIQUE IP's. I really doubt kronos is as smart as you think he is and using multiple IPs' just to post. Common proxy servers could be black listed in addition to this accounts wanting to upvote should be required to verifiy via email AND have a minimum of a set amount of time active. So you can just make an account and upvote then ditch the account and repeat. Likewise you couldn't make an account and downvote an idea and repeat... to prevent it from ever being discussed. In addition to this the upvotes would be recorded so admin can use common sense when they see paterns. and react accordingly.

1.A) To add on i think that in order to participate in conversation you should have to choose your side For, Against , or Neutral.  So people can keep track of how you stand.

 

 

2.) I did press it... and wish i didn't because it didn't even open in a new tab so it cleared out everything i previously typed about 1..... very annoying But regardless you miss the point. The point is so that you DONT HAVE TO QUOTE SOMEONE. It's trashy, and it takes up space. Take this thread for example. Anyone who read your post has already read everything you quoted to them. There's no reason to repeat it. But if you cite it... then they can click your citation and maybe have a popup of the quote that they cited.  Which is why removing the ability to edit in the fourm would be essential because it prevents people from going back and changing what they said to make someone look foolish. Or a history of updates would work to server space permiting. Perhaps numbering each edit individually for citation purposes.

 

Edit::**Also note, if you click on your name it will scroll up instead of reloading the page. So you could easily click to scroll up and read what i wrote and continue typing. Of coarse this is limited to just one page**
 

3.) What you cited is not what im talking about... i believe you are talking about private messaging. Hence i said something LIKE PM's except they are attached to the actual form. In such that for example this post right here is hidden to everyone else viewing this page EXCEPT you... because you're the one im discussing this with right now. The purpose of this would be to prevent cross talk about "you're an alt of kronos" the only reason people would say that is to get public attention. And you cant really tell them they cant because tey don't have a way to tell the person their feelings in private. but we all know it's being done to derail a thread.

 

4.) Not sure what your response to this is... but have you seen some of the topics going on? keeping in mind that the goal of this is only to allow disscussion of what people WANT to talk about. So it will provide a lot of valuable infomation on topic. You cant expect to stop people from getting off topic. I have yet to see a forum that has found a way to do this the most common method is to lock the thread.... which is what a lot of people are wanting to kill something they disagree with.

 

5.) Again, we've disscussed this period about unique IPs. The difference here is that you're confusing the point entirely, which is why disccusion rather than argumetns are helpful, The point being You get no advantage to having a high priority item. This isn't about bragging rights. It's a community discussion no one person is responsible for the idea. There is no one taking credit for other peoples work that some people are afraid of.  Right now the REP system just stands to say a few things.. if you like it or hate it.........(or like or hate the person who started the post) The difference with this part of the suggestion is it stands to give the development team some feedback on what they need to pay attention to.


The point being that this is the developers game that's true... it's their buisness... but we're the ones playing it. So we should be more active in providing them a better source of feedback to get this game out of beta...which as i've said prior in other posts a facebook game is always in beta until it's no longer played by anyone. there never is a finished product.


 

1.) You do know that IP address always changes right? Especially on ISP. So if only uniques can do that, there are no uniques, because commonly the assigned IP address is already gone. Sure there can be static IP addresses, but the point is there are dynamic IP addresses.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ress_assignment

 

2.) Then just erase the contents. It still links to the very same post.

 

3.) Yeah, i don't know why but it's actually disabled for an unknown thing. What i suggested is to make the PM system much more secure, so that there is no SPAMMING. And also has BEEN SUGGESTED. otherwise, i'm not against the idea.

 

4.) Yeah, but i'm saying it's unnecessary, because it's just more work for the system, when it can be achieved by patiently waiting. And not some bug that prevents usage of something. But you know whatever floats your boat.

 

5.) same reasons of #1. Also because people are not reliable indicator of whether an argument is important or high priority.  


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#6
ligoccogil

ligoccogil
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uggh cant sleep....

 

Response to :The Architect

 

1.) Yes you're correct static ip's do change ... SLIGHTLY they don't give you an entirely different ip each and every time you request one. They can be broken down to some degree of accuracy. There will always be false duplicates especially for the case of mobile users. In addition, i also doubt kronos is smart enough to know how to change his IP. Regardless thou it will prohibit people within close proximity of each other. ... But yes, you raise a valid argument towards false linking of accounts to eacht other. But this technique is applyed to a number of online games to prevent multis with reasonable success. 

 

2.) Again this is an idea of how to Improve on the current experience of the game to make it easier for members to communicate. Not asking how tings can be done. As you can see from the above i am very well aware of how it's possible to cite someone with out quoting someone. The suggestion is purly pointing out that its only possible thru work arounds. Although the alternative work around is noted.

 

3.) Again your missing the point... Im not talking about private messaging the problem with that is it's difficult to keep in context. It would be more organized for topic discussion to keep everything related to that thread in the thread. My guess as to why Private messages are disabled, and why this may not be favorable for admin, is because this isn't facebook. Were not here to chat with each other private messages take up server space they don't want to use their servers to allow plyers to talk about the baseball game on tv last night.  The difference being. That in the forums it's getting put there like it or not... it's taking up server space... but it's cluttering up the fourms. The goal is not to provide members a way to discuss things privately they can exchange e-mails for that. The goal is to keep down the unneccisary clutter.

 

4.) and 5.) The purpose of this suggestion is not to speed up the implementation of anything. The purpose is to thurougly discuss proposals that have merit. And to do so in a way that would provide admin a way to understand what the players are talking about with out having to read 40 pages.  Pretty much making it so they never have to come to the fourms. I think Con's been quoted as having sad "i only use the fourms to jog my memory"..... I like to find that exact quote to see if he meant it as he doesn't care(which fourm guidelines say otherwise) or if in context he was simply saying he's not following or mediating any of the ideas and that he's just a fly on the wall.

 

 

In respose to Peter

 

There are ways around it... not denying that... Which i intentionally didn't discuss ,besides changemyip ,because you're right there are ways around it. And there are also ways to tell if someone is using the most common ways around it. There are blacklists that can be found free, as well as expensive services(not reccomending it) that has lists of common ways around IP detection. Not sure what exactly ChangeMyIP is....or if you were just trying to say that IP's are static and not dynamic? in which case,see above response to arch. As far as IPBOARD not supporting it, you may be right it may be it may be impossible using their boards. That's not saying that developers couldn't review this disscussion and be convienced to switch to another fourm. I'm curious if they are on a monthly plan or bought a license out right.  I really need to sleep (just cant)... but if the discussion progresses rather than goes in a circle researching possible alternatives that could better support the community.  Again, this is just a proposal and idea that is in my views never even meant to be addressed by the game developers at this stage.

 

And im not entirely sure, but it's possible that if we as a community cane come up with suggestions it may even be possible to crosspost over into the IP.Board....... It's quite possible it's stuff that can be implemented already or maybe even stuff that they would consider adding. Work for developers here would be non existant if the details are hashed out enough to get ipboards interest.

They also have a pretty good user support community... so all this may even be a simple few lines of pre-written code.

But it's no where near thought thru enough to go that route.... but looking into ipboard more seems they have a big update coming out in 2014 anyway.... :) so this post is probally just more of me talking and arch talking back.

 

 

Addition: 6.) Initial proposals(for people to vote on) should be limited to 200 characters or less. The goal being not to hash out an entire idea but to see if the idea is even worth talking about.


Edited by ligoccogil, 04 January 2014 - 10:55 AM.

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#7
The Architect

The Architect
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1.) That is called Caches/Cookies, as well as online accounts. Caches and Cookies are data within your browser to assign a different ID than IP. Another way is different accounts. If you want that "Unique" ID, don't go with IP. Have the cookies instead, as IP has lesser chance of being accurate. Of course there are possibilities of Cookies and Caches being cleared, but it gives significantly better preservation and more accurate identification than just recording the IP Addresses.

 

2.) Sure, but it's just another unnecessary work, because of laziness. But yeah okay.

 

3.) I wasn't arguing why PM are good or bad, i'm just saying that it's been suggested before. Why is that so hard to understand? What about private chat room? it's volatile, does not save conversations, thus no fuss.

 

4 and 5.) i really don't get where you are going.


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#8
Rain08

Rain08
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This would be my opinion on the OP:

1.) The problem for that is new users, especially those having problems with the game, they won't be answered immediately. And how would the system work? If anyone can do it, then it can just be easily exploited. You can just make 10 or more accounts now and make fake threads about having problems with the game. And using those accounts, use them in a laptop and go to public places and use the Wi-Fi (not sure if this can change your IP address or to make you harder to track). Or according to The Architect, use the caches/cookies to determine the unique user. Then you can just use CCleaner to remove those stuff and you're computer will be unique again. One way to do it is to use them in computer rental shops/Internet Cafe so you couldn't get tracked; use one account per computer/shop. If the system was implemented, then those 10 accounts can be used to give the new account a "unique upvote". Of course this could be quickly dealt with by knowing who gave the upvotes and removing their ability to do so and make the new account to have 10 "unique "upvotes again. In relation to the solution earlier: The other problem is storing the data on who gave the "unique upvote", as the time passes by, it will just pile-up and may not be used. 

 

2.) What The Architect said on the second post.

 

3.) There's PM'ing system here, but only the devs are the one that's capable of sending ones. You can only receive them and probably reply if I can remember.

 

4.) I don't know about that yet. I feel like no, but at the same time yes since it could be helpful to those who make very long threads.

 

5.) I don't find it useful. It's just like bringing threads always on the top of the list and the threads that could have been helpful might be buried.

 

6.) I don't know how can that work. I don't understand it.


Edited by Rain08, 04 January 2014 - 01:22 PM.

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#9
warbrand2

warbrand2
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Just going to upvote the second post cause that states my opinions better then I can.



#10
The Architect

The Architect
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3.) Concerning PMs - Yeah, okay sure hidden posts between two participants. But that's just more work, just go use the damn PM system, and just read the subject. This is just another level of Laziness.
 
6.) No, because 200 characters is rather too small. As well as it will limit the details suggestors can give, when they already have a clear concept. Also, there are people who have problems in speaking briefly. So they take more words than what is actually needed, but in communication in forums, grammar usually don't matter (unless you're a grammar nazi), because what is actually needed is to convey a message. 
 
This response alone is 568 (no spaces) characters, including this concluding statement.

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#11
MaxSheen

MaxSheen
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Ok guys, if IPs can be changed then HOW is it possible to stop Krono or anyone like him?


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#12
The Architect

The Architect
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Ok guys, if IPs can be changed then HOW is it possible to stop Krono or anyone like him?

It's not. That is the evil-ness of Internet. Trolls everywhere.

 

@aggripas - I didn't start it this time.


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#13
Zingman

Zingman
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Honestly think you're putting way too much stock into the value of upvotes.   Upvotes/downvotes can be manipulated if you're determined enough.  The reason we don't have a lot of manipulation is because it doesn't have any significant impact.   You can't sort by reputation, upvoted threads are not sticky, and downvoted threads are not locked.

 

Also this idea doesn't stop people like kronosian from posting.  If anything, it will make the situation worse.  Instead of having a handful of threads started by him and his ilk with a hundred posts in each thread, you'll get a hundred threads, each one locked.

 

I do agree that quoting someones entire post (as a entire block at least) is pretty poor form,  when responding to a post (other than the OP) I will often go:

 

-stuff-

 

It's not perfect by any means, but it gets the job done.   You could also press the # on each post to get the quick link for cut/paste and use BB code, but quoting and sniping out the text is quicker.   Sometimes however, It's useful to break down a post line by line, in which case quoting them, to call out that specific point(s) is useful.

 

 

Lastly, a 200 character limit is far to restrictive in my honest opinion, there are many good ideas that well over that, and many bad ideas that are not.


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#14
ligoccogil

ligoccogil
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In reply to Zingman


I put not stock in up votes... and accept the fact that people can manipulate it. It's simply the fact that if someone want's to go from mcdonalds create an account to wendys to create an account just to upvote .. they deserve the upvotes from the ALTS. That's just to start the thing off... if not then no one is going to disccuss the persons topic cause in theory there would be other ideas to disccuss worth talking about. There are other fourms i've seen taht actually tell you who upvoted/down voted... the anonomous crap is retarded.

 

I think quoting just causes clutter when people quote an entire paragraph just to comment on a tiny aspect of it. It's just over used by some people if there's a conversation going on then you'd figure people are reading the same thing you are so they already know what you're quoting.

My biggest issue with quoting is how difficult it is to address an item line by line... Did that the other day quoted a paragraph spaced everything out and then when im done it looked all quote-reply.........and "Sorry you quoted to much...cannot post" or what ever stupid error it gives.

 

6.) If you cant explain your idea in 200 characters... it's probally not that good. But i do agree i hate it when im on twitter and have to use UR and stuff....

 

And yeah there's also nothing from someone saying "My idea is to add a monkey that plays the organ".......just to get it started and then change the discussion to "Why monkeys suck"...... Atleast with a 200 character proposal the goal would have to be clearly defined in a way it's obvious when someones off track. Similar to titles of threads just with more room for explaining.

 

I may be mistaken, but ideally the suggestion is meant as a way to allow users to filter out the other ones so they don't keep getting bumped to the top. It's sort of like a sticky.... You could even allow open discussions like it is now... but it's more of a formal way to moderate the fourms with out actual moderators.

 

 

 

 

 

Reply to MaxSheen

 

Archietect is right it's not. but i've beta tested a few online text based games that do one hell of a job at it. There are services you can get that block all proxies. And again you'd have to understand how IP's work they can be changed, but most people leave thier computers running 24/7 and hardly ever change. But the problem isn't keeping people out it's not letting people in. IP assignemnt works like this....

 

Say Charter internet reserved 200M IPS(in actuality they have a lot more)..... and if they had isps in every state they would take that 200M ip addresses and subnet them out giving each state 4M ips.... So you could ban a whole state of chater users... Charter doesn't stop there thou... they take those 4M IP's and they subnet them out to each district.. so for argument sake if they have 4 districts each district would have 4 million IP's to share...... they keep breaking it down to smaller areas ..........The problem is that if Charter had 5 million customers in a district but only 4 million IP's what would they do? But the odd's of 4 million people being online at the same time is slim........

So pretty much you can get a new IP just by asking for it... but they will only give you a few dozen options. And they will all be very similar in the first 3 octets will be the same.... Thus you can ban the whole range he's on... and risk banning someone who lives within a short distance from him. Which again, is why mobile Ip's are hardest because your "district" will change depending on where you're located and which tower you connect to for your 4G.

 

 

Replies to...... archiects multiple replies.

3.)Again The reason why It would make more sense in fourms than in PM is because that way people have no excuse for being stupid and derailing a thread. It has nothing to do with providing a way for private communication. There is no reason for people to communicate privatly. But it's a stressful job for the admin to reinforce people going off topic because 2 people want to argue back and forth like we are doing right now. And that is the premesis of the suggestion to prevent circle jerks.
 


Replies to rain

 

Then you can just use CCleaner....... Really instead of just going to history, clear recent history and clearing everything. But yeah Cookies as a tracking lol that's ridiculous those are so much easier to change because they are randomly generated everytime the person logs on. until you can tell the person is unique how can you assign unique cookies......... Kinda silly on that part.

That being said there is data that is sent along with your IP such as what type of browser you use, your country, what version of windows you use..... Which i will agree 90% of us probally match the same criterias in that. But there are users who never update their firefox.

That being said i'm not even pretending that it's possible to keep smart or DETERMINED people from abusing it... but again what difference will it make if they abuse it.. so what their ideas get brought up for discussion.... the idea is not to stop them.. the idea is to reduce the number of needless posts. Not stop all needless posts.

 

The PM system is there, and again it's LIKE the PM system. The point being a way to restrict people from talking back and forth in the forums. Even if the PM system you say is there was open to all players. Do you honestly think that the players here will message Kronos? They want to talk to him they BEG for his attention in the fourms. It's stuff like that which would be nice. And i'm not even pretending that people will use it... because again the people who "hate" Kronos will be crying in their beds the night that he stops posting.


Edited by ligoccogil, 05 January 2014 - 01:22 AM.

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#15
Rain08

Rain08
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Replies to rain

 

Then you can just use CCleaner....... Really instead of just going to history, clear recent history and clearing everything. But yeah Cookies as a tracking lol that's ridiculous those are so much easier to change because they are randomly generated everytime the person logs on. until you can tell the person is unique how can you assign unique cookies......... Kinda silly on that part.

That being said there is data that is sent along with your IP such as what type of browser you use, your country, what version of windows you use..... Which i will agree 90% of us probally match the same criterias in that. But there are users who never update their firefox.

That being said i'm not even pretending that it's possible to keep smart or DETERMINED people from abusing it... but again what difference will it make if they abuse it.. so what their ideas get brought up for discussion.... the idea is not to stop them.. the idea is to reduce the number of needless posts. Not stop all needless posts.

 

The PM system is there, and again it's LIKE the PM system. The point being a way to restrict people from talking back and forth in the forums. Even if the PM system you say is there was open to all players. Do you honestly think that the players here will message Kronos? They want to talk to him they BEG for his attention in the fourms. It's stuff like that which would be nice. And i'm not even pretending that people will use it... because again the people who "hate" Kronos will be crying in their beds the night that he stops posting.

-Well there's another way around it. By going to rental shops or Internet Cafes and using each account their. You can use one account per computer or per shop. It'll increase the chance of the computer being "unique". But it can become suspicious as the area becomes "hot", which means many accounts are being used in the area; and it'll raise eyebrows.

 

-The only way to reduce or eliminate all needless posts is to have a mod at all. No need for new program/application in the forum. Even if the mod is atleast online once a day with a 1 hour time span is enough to keep the forum clean. I know that the mod is on vacation since he's not active.

 

-I don't understand on people using the PM and the other one which is talking to Krono.


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#16
The Architect

The Architect
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Replies to...... archiects multiple replies.

3.)Again The reason why It would make more sense in fourms than in PM is because that way people have no excuse for being stupid and derailing a thread. It has nothing to do with providing a way for private communication. There is no reason for people to communicate privatly. But it's a stressful job for the admin to reinforce people going off topic because 2 people want to argue back and forth like we are doing right now. And that is the premesis of the suggestion to prevent circle jerks.

Well, limiting the participants is just like PM system. It's just another lazy waste of time.


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#17
Zingman

Zingman
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I put not stock in up votes... and accept the fact that people can manipulate it. It's simply the fact that if someone want's to go from mcdonalds create an account to wendys to create an account just to upvote .. they deserve the upvotes from the ALTS. That's just to start the thing off..

 

That's illogical.   To put no stock in upvotes, but yet require them to even begin conversation makes no sense --  it just boggles the mind.

 

If you cant explain your idea in 200 characters... it's probally not that good. But i do agree i hate it when im on twitter and have to use UR and stuff....

 

Yet that is exactly what you're asking for.  This is an open forum, not a cellphone or Twitter, or whatever.   Nothing makes me cringe more than when somebody uses "chatspeak" here.   It just make them look infantile, lazy and/or stupid.   If you take the time to actually formulate your posts, and use proper grammar and punctuation (note it doesn't need to be perfect, but it should look like you made the attempt in my honest opinion) 200 characters will go by very quick.   Please don't ask to turn this forum into a chatspeak environment.

 

---

 

What's the word I'm looking for...

 

retarded.

 

That's the one.


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