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Weapon Accuracy Restructuring

Accuracy Combat Statistics

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#1
Etimai

Etimai
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[Copied from GS]

This was a topic I posted some time ago that never got a single response, most likely because I posted it in the middle of some troll storm or drama fest at the time and it got burried. Now that we are on (hopefully) a better directed medium I would like to bring up this subject again. One of the things that bugs me about this game is the concept of weapon accuracy. Currently as it stands each type of gun has it's own accuracy which can be boosted (slightly) by the general "ranged combat" skill, (significantly) by having the right modification, and (massively) by having the right gear item equipped.

 

The reality is however that a gun does not have an integral accuracy of its own. The accuracy of a gun is largely dependent on the skill of the person wielding said gun. Unfortuntely as it stands, the survivor wielding a gun has less of an impact on it's accuracy than the mods and gear they have equipped. This is highly unrealistic. While I realize that this is just a game and realism must sometimes be sacraficed, I do not believe that this needs to be the case here. So the question is, if Guns are not supposed to have an inherent accuracy, what DO they have? Typically the characteristic of a gun that most affects the direct accuracy is actually bullet spread. In other words, survivor skill is what allows them to hit their targets, a gun actually is actually more of a negative factor based on it's construction and design. I suggest the following as the most realistic representation of how accuracy could be implemented in Dead Zone.

1. Ranged Combat is the base general skill in guns. This should be represented as the accuracy with any random weapon you pick up and attempt to fire. I would suggest that 1 point of ranged combat skill should equate to an initial 1% base accuracy with a weapon (this WILL require that +ranged combat items need to be readjusted stat wise).

NOTE: general ranged combat skill would probably have to be adjusted to only 1 point per several levels.

2. Weapon Specialization should simply be equated to ranged combat with a specific weapon, thus instead of a recon having a +10% accuracy with long rifles, they would instead have gain a larger amount of long rifle ranged combat skill above other classes.

The total maximum accuracy of a particular survivor would be the base weapon skill plus the specialization skill. Thus a survivor with +20 base RC and +45 long ranged skill would have a total of 65% accuracy with any gun within the Long Rifle class.

3. Bullet Spread is a negative modifier each gun has which is used to determine the final general accuracy of a specific weapon. Highly accurate guns like sniper rifles will have a very tiny bullet spread while shorter barreled fast firing guns like those in the sub machine gun category should have a much higher negative modifier.

The final unmodified accuracy with a particular weapon should thus be:

Ranged Combat + Specialized Combat + Gear/Weapon Mods - Weapon Spread = Accuracy

4. Mods now open up for a much greater variety as each specialized combat can have its own modifiers. I feel that scoped should no longer be a general weapon mod but instead should be a gear item. Different sighting systems will have greater impact on accurate with different guns. For Example; a simple laser sight may boost submachine gun and pistol accuracy. An ACOG scope could boost Assault Rifle and to a smaller extent sub machine gun accuracy. A hunting scope on the other hand could give a large boost to long rifles and a moderate boost to Assault Rifles.

 

The following are some examples of how stats *could* be distributed in order to simulate the current "Weapon Speciality" and class abilities:

 

Example Stats:

lvl 50 Recon
Ranged Combat - 20 points
Long RIfle Combat - 60 points
Assault Rifle Combat - 45 points
LMG Combat - 20 points
SMG Combat - 25 points
Shotgun Combat - 10 points
Pistol Combat - 30 points

(total base Long rifle accuracy before bullet spread and gear is 80%)

lvl 50 Engineer
Ranged Combat - 25 points

Improvised Combat - 20 points
Long Rifle Combat - 30 points
Assault Rifle Combat - 25 points
LMG Combat - 25 points
SMG Combat - 15 points
Shotgun Combat - 30 points
Pistol Combat - 35 points

(moderately low general combat, improvised specialization)

lvl 50 Fighter
Ranged Combat - 40 points
Long Rifle Combat - 20 points
Assault Rifle Combat - 35 points
LMG Combat - 50 points
SMG Combat - 10 points
Shotgun Combat - 10 points
Pistol Combat - 15 points

(high base combat skills in all weapons, AR specialization)

~D

 

Added:

 

lvl 50 Medic

Ranged Combat - 5 points
Long Rifle Combat - 25 points
Assault Rifle Combat - 25 points
LMG Combat - 25 points
SMG Combat - 45 points
Shotgun Combat - 20 points
Pistol Combat - 55 points

 

(Note difference between FIghter and Medic, identical Pistol Stats, but Fighter gets a much larger boost from Ranged Combat)

 

lvl 50 Scavenger

Ranged Combat - 30 points

Improvised Combat - 10 points
Long Rifle Combat - 25 points
Assault Rifle Combat - 15 points
LMG Combat - 5 points
SMG Combat - 25 points
Shotgun Combat - 40 points
Pistol Combat - 20 points


 


Edited by Etimai, 15 April 2013 - 07:39 PM.

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#2
Grind Monkey

Grind Monkey
  • 302 posts

 

"The reality is however that a gun does not have an integral accuracy of its own. The accuracy of a gun is largely dependent on the skill of the person wielding said gun. Unfortuntely as it stands, the survivor wielding a gun has less of an impact on it's accuracy than the mods and gear they have equipped. This is highly unrealistic."

 

It works that way in the game as well. At least it does at high level. Skill has a huge impact on accuracy.

 

Also some guns are more accurate than others in the real world.
 


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#3
Nicol_Djaghilev

Nicol_Djaghilev
  • 569 posts

It's a good idea, but I think seeing -something instead of +something on the guns would put some people off.

 

Just my two cents.


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#4
Etimai

Etimai
  • 93 posts

 

"The reality is however that a gun does not have an integral accuracy of its own. The accuracy of a gun is largely dependent on the skill of the person wielding said gun. Unfortuntely as it stands, the survivor wielding a gun has less of an impact on it's accuracy than the mods and gear they have equipped. This is highly unrealistic."

 

It works that way in the game as well. At least it does at high level. Skill has a huge impact on accuracy.

 

Also some guns are more accurate than others in the real world.
 

 

Compared to what you can get off of gear even at high levels the ranged combat skill does relatively little. Yes some guns are more accurate, this is represented by a smaller bullet spread. In other words your skill (Ability to aim a weapon properly) combined with the particular weapons bullet spread is what determines whether a particular bullet hits. SMG's tend to "spray" bullets, and compensate for that with a high rate of fire. An SMG is going to have a relatively large bullet spread. On the other end a high quality sniper rifle is finely tuned to place a bullet at exactly the same point given comparable factors. As such a sniper rifle would have a very small bullet spread if any at all.

 

There would actually not be any "-somethings" listed on a gun, rather the stat "Bullet Spread: X.X deg" where 1 degree at max effective range = -2% accuracy. This would be similiar to "Reload Time" which is indicated by a positive number, but the smaller the number the better the stat.

 

~Drei


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#5
Zingman

Zingman
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I have allways thought the accuracy to be a bit... odd.   To me a "untrained" person (such as a medic) should not have the same accuracy as a "trained" person (recon) with long rifles.   Sure they should be able to use them, but they should suffer some sort of penalty.   They should also reload signifigantly slower, take longer to aim, etc., and we just don't see that.


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#6
Chaosticket

Chaosticket
  • 165 posts

accuracy is somewhat irrelevant.

 

after 2 years of fighting everyone should be a marksmen. They fight daily against zombies, theyre highly experienced.

 

ingame thats shown by having relatively low accuray weapons(like 40-50%) get better, so they have 60-70% accuracy.

 

Putting too much into "specializiation" is wrong. The classes are general ideas.

 

a recon is probably a recreational hunter, whos just good with rifles.

a fighter is probably a former cop or security guard.

engineer a construction worker or carpenter

medic a nursing student, medical intern or just somebody whos good with first aid.

a scavenger just somebody who doesnt fit into the other groups, the closest to a pure civilian class, like a pizza-delivery person or office worker.

 

accuracy really shouldnt bve an issue unless combat gets outside teh short ranges theyre are now. When combat gets to 50-150range then accuracy should be a big issue.


Edited by Chaosticket, 11 April 2013 - 12:04 AM.

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#7
Etimai

Etimai
  • 93 posts

accuracy is somewhat irrelevant.

 

after 2 years of fighting everyone should be a marksmen. They fight daily against zombies, theyre highly experienced.

 

ingame thats shown by having relatively low accuray weapons(like 40-50%) get better, so they have 60-70% accuracy.

 

Putting too much into "specializiation" is wrong. The classes are general ideas.

 

a recon is probably a recreational hunter, whos just good with rifles.

a fighter is probably a former cop or security guard.

engineer a construction worker or carpenter

medic a nursing student, medical intern or just somebody whos good with first aid.

a scavenger just somebody who doesnt fit into the other groups, the closest to a pure civilian class, like a pizza-delivery person or office worker.

 

accuracy really shouldnt bve an issue unless combat gets outside teh short ranges theyre are now. When combat gets to 50-150range then accuracy should be a big issue.

 

When you are starting out at level 1 however it is not assumed that you have survived for 2 years in the apocalypse. The game starts at about 1 year after people are only just starting to pull together into groups. That represents level 1. Survivors have some skills in firearms, but they may not be terribly good at using them. By the time you hit level 50 howerver it is assumed that your survivors have been around the block, shot the occupants and are bad ass, this is represented by the stats I posted in the OP. Getting from level 1 to 50 takes time, and you slowly build up your skills in the process. By the time you reach level 50 your survivors are all going to be extremely proficient in the weapons they are most practiced at using.  If you take a look at the stats I suggested, most survivors will be at least 60% base accuracy with at least one weapon type. While this may not be soldier status, it is probably a major step up from any john doe you encounter today. But my system does not force people into specializing, there is nothing wrong with a medic wielding a long rifle or a LMG, but that does not mean they are going to be as good at using one as the scout and fighter who is protecting them while they treat wounds and perform reaserch.

 

~Drei


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#8
Chaosticket

Chaosticket
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Even after 1 year the survivors have had 6-9months about of fighting after the city got sealed or even beforehand.

 

Class specilization makes no sense. why cant a nurse become an expert with a rifle?

 

why cant a carpenter run fast?

 

and so on. its really a system to create handicaps, which becomes more and more of a problem as your survivor become a tightly-knit group of anti-zombie guerilla fights.

 

at this point it would be better for people to create their own characters from scratch, maybe even a backstory for your character.


Edited by Chaosticket, 11 April 2013 - 12:48 AM.

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#9
Etimai

Etimai
  • 93 posts

Just some extra data to throw into the mix...

 

lvl 1 Recon

Ranged Combat - 10 points +0.2 points per level
Long RIfle Combat - 30 points +0.6 points per level
Assault Rifle Combat - 15 points +0.6 points per level
LMG Combat - 0 points +0.4 points per level
SMG Combat - 05 points +0.4 points per level
Shotgun Combat - 0 points +0.2 points per level
Pistol Combat - 20 points +0.2 points per level

lvl 1 Engineer
Ranged Combat - 15 points +0.2 points per level

Improvised Combat - 10 points +0.2 points per level
Long Rifle Combat - 5 points +0.3 points per level
Assault Rifle Combat - 5 points +0.4 points per level
LMG Combat - 5 points +0.4 points per level
SMG Combat - 5 points +0.2 points per level
Shotgun Combat - 10 points +0.5 points per level
Pistol Combat - 10 points +0.5 points per level

lvl 1 Fighter
Ranged Combat - 20 points +0.4 points per level
Long Rifle Combat - 0 points +0.4 points per level
Assault Rifle Combat - 05 points +0.6 points per level
LMG Combat - 20 points +0.6 points per level
SMG Combat - 5 points +0.1 points per level
Shotgun Combat - 0 points +0.2 points per level
Pistol Combat - 5 points +0.2 points per level

lvl 1 Medic

Ranged Combat - 5 points +0 points per level
Long Rifle Combat - 15 points +0.3 points per level
Assault Rifle Combat - 20 points +0.1 points per level
LMG Combat - 10 points +0.3 points per level
SMG Combat - 20 points +0.5 points per level
Shotgun Combat - 15 points +0.1 points per level
Pistol Combat - 30 points +0.5points per level

lvl 1 Scavenger

Ranged Combat - 20 points +0.2 points per level

Improvised Combat - 5 points +0.1 points per level
Long Rifle Combat - 5 points +0.4 points per level
Assault Rifle Combat - 5 points +0.2 points per level
LMG Combat - 0 points +0.1 points per level
SMG Combat - 10 points +0.3 points per level
Shotgun Combat - 15 points +0.5 points per level
Pistol Combat - 10 points +0.2 points per level

 

~Drei


Edited by Etimai, 15 April 2013 - 07:48 PM.

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#10
Kuronishen

Kuronishen
  • 545 posts

Even after 1 year the survivors have had 6-9months about of fighting after the city got sealed or even beforehand.

 

Class specilization makes no sense. why cant a nurse become an expert with a rifle?

 

why cant a carpenter run fast?

 

and so on. its really a system to create handicaps, which becomes more and more of a problem as your survivor become a tightly-knit group of anti-zombie guerilla fights.

 

at this point it would be better for people to create their own characters from scratch, maybe even a backstory for your character.

 

Heterogeneity in the classes is a good thing. If all the classes could do the exact same things equally well, there would be no need to pick a class in the first place.

 

Again, this is a loss of realism for the sake of balancing the game.


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#11
Chaosticket

Chaosticket
  • 165 posts

Ok so Ill just take a 90% accuracy with every weapon. My survivors have used every kind of weapon, so theyre experienced. If a new kind of weapon comes out in the future this will matter.

 

pistols, shotguns, smgs, assault rifles, machineguns, sniper rifles, and melee weapons, theyre all experts.

 

my medic can quick-draw with a revolver.

 

Heterogeneity in the classes is a good thing. If all the classes could do the exact same things equally well, there would be no need to pick a class in the first place.

 

Again, this is a loss of realism for the sake of balancing the game.

thats the bloody point. there is no point to divide the human survivors into classes. its simple, but incredibly unrealistic and inefficient.

 

I constantly tell people about the Fallout and Jagged Alliances games as better skill-systems.


Edited by Chaosticket, 11 April 2013 - 09:48 PM.

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#12
Chaosticket

Chaosticket
  • 165 posts

delete


Edited by Chaosticket, 11 April 2013 - 09:47 PM.

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#13
Kuronishen

Kuronishen
  • 545 posts

Ok so Ill just take a 90% accuracy with every weapon. My survivors have used every kind of weapon, so theyre experienced. If a new kind of weapon comes out in the future this will matter.

 

pistols, shotguns, smgs, assault rifles, machineguns, sniper rifles, and melee weapons, theyre all experts.

 

my medic can quick-draw with a revolver.

 

thats the bloody point. there is no point to divide the human survivors into classes. its simple, but incredibly unrealistic and inefficient.

 

I constantly tell people about the Fallout and Jagged Alliances games as better skill-systems.

 

Apples and oranges. The Fallout SPECIAL system is an absolutely great system for building a character from the ground up, but that's not the way this game's system is modeled for. I'd also argue that it works a lot more effectively when you use it to focus on one character rather than several.

 

You should also keep in mind that this is a flash game. If you want that level of depth in character creation, you'd likely have to pay for it and play something else. It would be quite a bit of work to completely restructure the skill system.


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#14
Chaosticket

Chaosticket
  • 165 posts

um, you do starts 10 survivors from level 1. how much is that different from Fallout level 1?

 

there isnt an accelerated start system in this game. You dont start out and get 5-10 level 20-50 survivors. you DO START FROM THE GROUND UP.


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#15
Kuronishen

Kuronishen
  • 545 posts

um, you do starts 10 survivors from level 1. how much is that different from Fallout level 1?

 

there isnt an accelerated start system in this game. You dont start out and get 5-10 level 20-50 survivors. you DO START FROM THE GROUND UP.

 

My other 9 didn't start at level 1, their level is tied to your character level when their requirements are met. Hence why you don't get them all at once.

 

You also don't allocate stat points to your other survivors - it's automatic based on their class, which has its innate pros and cons, but it works well for this style of RPG - not so much in ones where classes aren't preset, like Bethesda's games (which you seem to like using for examples).

 

The devs chose a class-based leveling system, it works within the confines of this game, and isn't necessary at this point to majorly overhaul.

 

No need for caps lock, by the way. 


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#16
Etimai

Etimai
  • 93 posts

Um look, you take 10 people in the real world and none of them are going to have exactly the same skills, preferences or abilities. Just because someone is an expert sharp shooter with a sniper rifle does not mean they can hip fire a revolver. I do not care whether it is 1 year or 5 years, your survivors are going to be specialized based on their strengths. Pistols, shotguns, smgs, assault rifles, machineguns, sniper rifles, and melee weapons, they're *NOT* going to be all experts. Please stop derailing this thread, I am looking for relevant feedback.

 

~Drei


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#17
Kuronishen

Kuronishen
  • 545 posts

Um look, you take 10 people in the real world and none of them are going to have exactly the same skills, preferences or abilities. Just because someone is an expert sharp shooter with a sniper rifle does not mean they can hip fire a revolver. I do not care whether it is 1 year or 5 years, your survivors are going to be specialized based on their strengths. Pistols, shotguns, smgs, assault rifles, machineguns, sniper rifles, and melee weapons, they're *NOT* going to be all experts. Please stop derailing this thread, I am looking for relevant feedback.

 

~Drei

 

Is that directed towards me? Don't think so, but can't tell.


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#18
Sandro_Jern

Sandro_Jern
  • 778 posts

Ooookay Etimai, to answer the original queston:

 

The system we have in the game accounts for BOTH the inherent spread angle of the gun AS WELL as the survivor's aim, with the former implied to be improved with weapon prefixes/suffixes and the latter being implied to be improved when we wear shooting vests and gloves and such. (But really they're the same stat, so basically the devs have clumped up everything you listed into one pile.)

 

Now, I remember Con stating that the ranged weapon skill affects not only the accuracy of a weapon, but also the damage-per-shot (or just damage :P ) and range, so there's a difference in effect between accuracy modifiers and ranged combat modifiers...the poblem you're stating is that the ranged combat skill affects accuracy only in positive ways...which nobody really noticed because well...I hate to upset you, but people just don't care (meh, the gun shoots fine, w/e)

 

Yes, having everyone be able to fire with 99% accuracy from a 99% accurate rifle is not realistic, and yes, I guess ranged combat skill really should have negative modifiers as well as positives (the - to accuracy you mentioned), but meh, it works well enough without overcomplicating things for people for now, so even though you bring up a really good point the system works well enough even in the screwed up state it's in now.

 

Plus, killing the accuracy of survivors in the early game this way would make guns unusable on early levels (when only sucky handguns and shotties are available and ranged combat stat is still low) and make newbies miserable :P.

 

And regarding different types of scopes...sorry, but this would require a rehaul in the prefix/suffix system...I guess we could have something like [Scoped Hunter Compact with AR-type scope], but fixed bonuses work well enough on greens/blues/purples and the rares/uniques have variable +% anyway.

 

So overall -1...if it ain't broke (read: if it doesn't bother people) don't fix it.   :^/ 


Edited by Sandro_Jern, 12 April 2013 - 01:57 AM.

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#19
Etimai

Etimai
  • 93 posts

Is that directed towards me? Don't think so, but can't tell.

 

No sorry...was directed at the troll.

 

~Drei


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#20
Chaosticket

Chaosticket
  • 165 posts

Um look, you take 10 people in the real world and none of them are going to have exactly the same skills, preferences or abilities. Just because someone is an expert sharp shooter with a sniper rifle does not mean they can hip fire a revolver. I do not care whether it is 1 year or 5 years, your survivors are going to be specialized based on their strengths. Pistols, shotguns, smgs, assault rifles, machineguns, sniper rifles, and melee weapons, they're *NOT* going to be all experts. Please stop derailing this thread, I am looking for relevant feedback.

 

~Drei

1 People might have a perference but they are all going to be skilled in fighting.

 

2 a Big point if that if you DONT learn to fight against zombies=you die. everyone survivor is a fighter. the difference is really the level of fighting skill.

 

a "fighter" is generally a former soldier, police officer, or even a security guard. they have more experience with weapons than say a scavenger which is generally a office worker, pizz delivery driver, whatever.

 

Even the more skilled would train the less-skilled fighters. the survivors have had 2 years of experience and training.

 

my survivors have been fighting for over for well over 500 days. theyre experienced anti-zombie guerilla fighters. if you want to think that its basically "the day after the zombie-apocalypse" instead of years, put that in your survivors backstory.

====================

MY survivors are experienced. Are yours low-level? just know the difference between level 1 novices and lvl 30-50 veterans

 

the class system is a huge-limiter on potential. it says medics can never be as skilled as fighters, even if that medic was a military medic, or a police sniper with training in first aid.


Edited by Chaosticket, 13 April 2013 - 05:43 PM.

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