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Trade And Barter System Suggestion

trade barter resources fuel

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#1
Yukon Kizmiaz

Yukon Kizmiaz
  • 18 posts

Disclaimer:

 

I searched but did not see a topic/suggestion similar to this; so my advance apologies if this has already been covered. Also, if trading is something the gameplay already allows, forgive my ignorance.

 

 

What I propose is a simple barter system for gameplayers. This would deal strictly with wood, metal, cloth and fuel.

 

Essentially, I envision an icon on the player screen whereby clicking on it would open a "marketplace," perhaps in a pop-up window. 

 

In this marketplace, you could offer X amount of one resource (wood, fuel, metal, cloth) for another. For example:

 

I have 2000 cloth. I need 750 wood. I open the market place and enter some basic search criteria, like "cloth." Or perhaps a dropdown menu saying "I'm offering min/max cloth for min/max wood." This would bring up a list of players looking to trade wood for cloth, for example. Or trade metal for fuel. Or fuel for cloth. Or wood for metal, and so on and so forth, whatever it is of those 4 items you're looking to trade.

 

Similarly, a player could just post an offer and let it stand until another player took them up on it.

 

The length of time to complete the trade would depend on one's distance from their trade partner. If I trade with the compound the next area over, it would take 5 minutes. Trading with someone on the other side of the map would take 3-4 hours. Perhaps it would require one of your survivors to be gone for that length of time as they "conduct the trade." So players would lose one survivor for the length of the trade, and allow their return to be sped up as you would with any other mission.

 

I suppose this idea could be expanded to include all items... you could exchange bandages for steel cables, or car batteries for weapons, whatever. I just figured being able to trade the 4 top resources would suffice.

 

Just my $.02 worth.


Edited by Yukon Kizmiaz, 08 July 2014 - 07:26 PM.

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#2
dumbjock123

dumbjock123
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Isn't that what the trade channel is for?  You post the items you're selling and say the items you're looking for.


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#3
Yukon Kizmiaz

Yukon Kizmiaz
  • 18 posts

Isn't that what the trade channel is for?  You post the items you're selling and say the items you're looking for.

But that costs fuel.

 

What I'm proposing is a free back-and-forth barter system. Replace the current one or at least make transactions free, take the "fuel tax" if you will out of it.


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#4
dumbjock123

dumbjock123
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But that costs fuel.

 

What I'm proposing is a free back-and-forth barter system. Replace the current one or at least make transactions free, take the "fuel tax" if you will out of it.


Sigh...should've figure.  The answer is no. 

 

Why does trading cost fuel?

"The cost tied to trading is to stem the flow of trade that would happen if it was free, also to stop harassment from lower level players as they beg for resources."

-Con


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#5
Zingman

Zingman
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For trading to be free there would have to be a complete rebalancing of the drop rates for every item, at every level.

 

No.


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#6
Yukon Kizmiaz

Yukon Kizmiaz
  • 18 posts

For trading to be free there would have to be a complete rebalancing of the drop rates for every item, at every level.

 

No.

 

Why? If I want to trade someone 500 cloth for 750 metal, and someone is offering that same trade, what needs to be rebalanced? How come I can't say "Okay, here's my 500 cloth, send over your 750 metal" and be done with it?

 

This wouldn't enable or encourage any "begging." If you don't have the resources to make the trade you want, you can create your own, and see if anyone will trade. What's stopping people from "begging" for resources right now?

 

With respect to fuel, if I have 50 gallons and someone's willing to give me 500 cloth for it, then who cares? What does it matter? Why does every trade under the current system have to involve a fuel tax/penalty? People should be allowed to barter for goods without being penalized for it.

 

There's a game out there called Pirates something or other which has a similar system. Instead of fuel, it has rubies, which you can earn or buy. Same with all the other resources in the game. You can go to the market, plug in whatever it is you're offering/looking for. You can also see what other players are offering. Then you make a trade, or post your own offer. After a few days, if your offer hasn't been accepted by anyone, it expires and you can try again.

 

I'm sure you'll just sigh, condescendingly pat me on the head and give me some rueful "because no, that's why" again. I think that's too bad, and a poor way to treat people who bring up ideas in good faith. I think it's a simple, workable system allowing people to trade only the resources they have for the resources they need. I don't see what's so hard about this.


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#7
dumbjock123

dumbjock123
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Why? If I want to trade someone 500 cloth for 750 metal, and someone is offering that same trade, what needs to be rebalanced? How come I can't say "Okay, here's my 500 cloth, send over your 750 metal" and be done with it?

 

This wouldn't enable or encourage any "begging." If you don't have the resources to make the trade you want, you can create your own, and see if anyone will trade. What's stopping people from "begging" for resources right now?

 

With respect to fuel, if I have 50 gallons and someone's willing to give me 500 cloth for it, then who cares? What does it matter? Why does every trade under the current system have to involve a fuel tax/penalty? People should be allowed to barter for goods without being penalized for it.

 

There's a game out there called Pirates something or other which has a similar system. Instead of fuel, it has rubies, which you can earn or buy. Same with all the other resources in the game. You can go to the market, plug in whatever it is you're offering/looking for. You can also see what other players are offering. Then you make a trade, or post your own offer. After a few days, if your offer hasn't been accepted by anyone, it expires and you can try again.

 

I'm sure you'll just sigh, condescendingly pat me on the head and give me some rueful "because no, that's why" again. I think that's too bad, and a poor way to treat people who bring up ideas in good faith. I think it's a simple, workable system allowing people to trade only the resources they have for the resources they need. I don't see what's so hard about this.

The whole trade system is a barter system.  There are no fixed prices or currency.  What you're asking for is free trading.  Something Con has said no to.  It's not an accident or a bug that trades cost fuel.  It's been designed intentionally into the game. 


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#8
Zingman

Zingman
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Why? If I want to trade someone 500 cloth for 750 metal, and someone is offering that same trade, what needs to be rebalanced?

 

Your obviously not a high-level player.  Guessing level 14 max, probably lower than that even.

 

At high levels you get 500-800 (sometimes over 1k if you're lucky) of each resource (wood/metal/cloth) when you visit a large hardware store.   When you couple this with higher level players not needing wood/metal/cloth unless they're restocking the genny or repairing barricades, they could flood the market -- or buff an alt account to the max.   So to keep that form happening the drop rates of wood/metal/cloth would have be nerfed -- severely.

 

But it's not just wood/metal/cloth, its components as well.

Some select components from my inventory:

Car Batteries: 15250

Hardened Metal: 15938

Heavy Fabric: 18963

Nails: 42001

 

I could go on, but you should get the drift.   Much like wood/metal/cloth, a high level player could crash the market and/or buff an alt account.   To prevent this from happening you would have to nerf the drop rates of components - and the items that could be converted into components.

 

---

 

Part of the challenge (and fun) of the PvE part of the game is managing resources.   Once everything is built a PvE player loses a significant part of their fun/challenge.   Some (like myself) stick around and begin the "eternal quest for better loot", though I don't play anywhere near as much as I used to.   Others take up raiding, and others quit.

 

In other words, you don't need to be in such a hurry to "finish the game"


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#9
Harpago

Harpago
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Why? If I want to trade someone 500 cloth for 750 metal, and someone is offering that same trade, what needs to be rebalanced? How come I can't say "Okay, here's my 500 cloth, send over your 750 metal" and be done with it?

 

This wouldn't enable or encourage any "begging." If you don't have the resources to make the trade you want, you can create your own, and see if anyone will trade. What's stopping people from "begging" for resources right now?

 

With respect to fuel, if I have 50 gallons and someone's willing to give me 500 cloth for it, then who cares? What does it matter? Why does every trade under the current system have to involve a fuel tax/penalty? People should be allowed to barter for goods without being penalized for it.

 

There's a game out there called Pirates something or other which has a similar system. Instead of fuel, it has rubies, which you can earn or buy. Same with all the other resources in the game. You can go to the market, plug in whatever it is you're offering/looking for. You can also see what other players are offering. Then you make a trade, or post your own offer. After a few days, if your offer hasn't been accepted by anyone, it expires and you can try again.

 

I'm sure you'll just sigh, condescendingly pat me on the head and give me some rueful "because no, that's why" again. I think that's too bad, and a poor way to treat people who bring up ideas in good faith. I think it's a simple, workable system allowing people to trade only the resources they have for the resources they need. I don't see what's so hard about this.

 

The best melee weapon in the game is the Crafted Sword, shadowed closely by the Long Saw. You can craft massive amounts of DPS, that quite literally enable you to auto missions on the highest levels with just two survivors, which is useful if you're spitting missions in and out, without having to worry about ammo with similar dps guns where the return from the missions themselves gradually wears down your capacity to keep throwing out your guys on them. Even missions you're playing having a couple of well-crafted swords enables you to carve your way through the zombie hoards, especially with a few guns as artillery. Crafted swords, like virtually all crafts require components, and lots of it. If you craft things, you'll invariably run out of one component or another. If you could just trade 5000 hardened metal free with someone, or elusive metal spikes, even tape, without any value attached to them part of the reason for playing the game, hunting for a supply of components suddenly is snuffed out of the game. I go through bouts of crafting and find it frustrating as hell when i'm counting down some of my components, knowing full well it won't just be a couple of trades to have enough to have a chance of getting crafts i'll be happy with. I'll have to go out into the dead zone and gradually find the components for a while, perhaps topping up here and there with trades, until I have enough again. I would much rather that than some bland and soulless exchange no effort what so ever has gone into getting all my components free from someone who may not craft. 

 

I've rambled to much to go on, but that's just one example.


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#10
Yukon Kizmiaz

Yukon Kizmiaz
  • 18 posts

"Your obviously not a high-level player.  Guessing level 14 max, probably lower than that even."

 

Level 29, thanks. But I appreciate your condescension. And it's "you're," not "your."

 

"At high levels you get 500-800 (sometimes over 1k if you're lucky) of each resource (wood/metal/cloth) when you visit a large hardware store.   When you couple this with higher level players not needing wood/metal/cloth unless they're restocking the genny or repairing barricades, they could flood the market -- or buff an alt account to the max.   So to keep that form happening the drop rates of wood/metal/cloth would have be nerfed -- severely."

 

The market would be self-regulating. If you're offering a resource no one wants or in quantities no one can afford, guess what? No one will trade with you. Doesn't matter how much you have. For example: if you offer 100 wood for 2,000 cloth, chances are only someone reaaalllly desperate would go for that. Otherwise, you'd likely have to make your terms more reasonable, much closer to 1:1 or 2:1. Pretty simple.

 

And if someone wants to create a new account for the purpose of hoarding supplies, let them. If they've got the free time and determination to play (and build up) two different compounds for the sole purpose of gathering resources to try and trade later, more power to them. Is there something in the ToS preventing people from operating more than one compund as long as they're following the rules?  Besides, what do I care if a person has 1 compound or 10? Or how they've acquired the resource I'm looking for? All I need to know is if they've got the resource I'm looking for at an exchange I consider fair. If they're breaking the rules, the game admins will deal with them, and when that happens, they'll be unable to trade anyways.

 

"But it's not just wood/metal/cloth, its components as well."

 

Ok, so go with my original proposal. Offer a bazaar, if you will, where people can trade metal, wood, cloth and fuel with each other. Forget components, or convert them into a resource you can trade. Take some extra gears, recycle them, get the metal, and trade for one of the other three resources you're looking for.  

 

"Much like wood/metal/cloth, a high level player could crash the market and/or buff an alt account."

 

The market will take care of itself. Simple supply and demand. People looking to trade will go to the people who offer them the best deal. Let's say I need 200 metal and have cloth to trade. Am I going to trade with the person who's offering me 300 metal for 400 cloth, or the person offering me 300 metal for 1,000 cloth? Which of those two options would you select? Once you've answered that, tell me how people are going to "crash the market" by offering to trade resources at prohibitive rates when people have the freedom to choose who they trade with by virtue of multiple vendors offering competitive terms and exchanges?  

 

"In other words, you don't need to be in such a hurry to 'finish the game.'"

 

Gee, thanks dad. I think it's a little presumptuous for you to tell me how to enjoy the game or at what rate I should play it at. You play it your way, I'll play it mine.


Edited by Yukon Kizmiaz, 09 July 2014 - 01:45 AM.

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#11
dumbjock123

dumbjock123
  • 929 posts


"I want free trading."

 

No.


Edited by dumbjock123, 09 July 2014 - 12:50 AM.

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#12
Harpago

Harpago
  • 1,742 posts

I forgot to down vote the idea


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#13
Yukon Kizmiaz

Yukon Kizmiaz
  • 18 posts

The best melee weapon in the game is the Crafted Sword, shadowed closely by the Long Saw. You can craft massive amounts of DPS, that quite literally enable you to auto missions on the highest levels with just two survivors, which is useful if you're spitting missions in and out, without having to worry about ammo with similar dps guns where the return from the missions themselves gradually wears down your capacity to keep throwing out your guys on them. Even missions you're playing having a couple of well-crafted swords enables you to carve your way through the zombie hoards, especially with a few guns as artillery. Crafted swords, like virtually all crafts require components, and lots of it. If you craft things, you'll invariably run out of one component or another. If you could just trade 5000 hardened metal free with someone, or elusive metal spikes, even tape, without any value attached to them part of the reason for playing the game, hunting for a supply of components suddenly is snuffed out of the game. I go through bouts of crafting and find it frustrating as hell when i'm counting down some of my components, knowing full well it won't just be a couple of trades to have enough to have a chance of getting crafts i'll be happy with. I'll have to go out into the dead zone and gradually find the components for a while, perhaps topping up here and there with trades, until I have enough again. I would much rather that than some bland and soulless exchange no effort what so ever has gone into getting all my components free from someone who may not craft. 

 

I've rambled to much to go on, but that's just one example.

 

Poor example.

 

The laws of supply and demand will make sure the market self-corrects.

 

" I would much rather that than some bland and soulless exchange no effort what so ever has gone into getting all my components free from someone who may not craft. "

 

If you have some moral or ethical objection to trading, then don't. No one's forcing you to take part. Trade, or not. It's wholly up to you. So I'm not really sure what your point is.


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#14
INoEmo

INoEmo
  • 393 posts

I'm sure you'll just sigh, condescendingly pat me on the head and give me some rueful "because no, that's why" again. I think that's too bad, and a poor way to treat people who bring up ideas in good faith. I think it's a simple, workable system allowing people to trade only the resources they have for the resources they need. I don't see what's so hard about this.

Do you not understand criticism?  They are telling you why you're idea will not work and you're just ignoring their reasoning and making snarky comments.  It is obviously not workable (as Zing and Jock have pointed out). 


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#15
Yukon Kizmiaz

Yukon Kizmiaz
  • 18 posts

There's a difference between criticism and condescension.

 

 

Do you not understand criticism?  They are telling you why you're idea will not work and you're just ignoring their reasoning and making snarky comments.  It is obviously not workable (as Zing and Jock have pointed out). 

 

I'll show anyone the same respect they show me; and there's a difference between an explanation and being condescending.

 

This is condescension: "Sigh...should've figure.  The answer is no."

 

This is condescension:  "Your (sic) obviously not a high-level player.  Guessing level 14 max, probably lower than that even."

 

Of the two, Zingman is the only one who eventually got around to offering some kind of explanation, and even then, he couldn't resist acting like he was dealing with some wrong-headed little boy who wandered into his forum and asked a silly question.

 

I still think my idea has merit and would work, despite the naysayers. Furthermore, my question was directed at the Con game mods. If people want to chime in and act haughty, they can expect to get as good as they give. 


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#16
Quadro40k

Quadro40k
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I still think my idea has merit and would work, despite the naysayers

 

One thing that's really interesting in your proposal is a marketplace window where you could place bids unattended.

 

If it's limited to standard stuff (resources, medical items, components, junk, active gear, boxes, keys) it could even be automated, meaning once the buyer accepted the offer, exchange happens immediately.

 

If it's extended to items (weapons, clothes, gear, schematics, books) it would need to be manually accepted by seller (as the price would be descriptive, so buyer would need to assess whether offering matches his request).

 

This would allow for much bigger activity in trades, especially at low levels. I remember myself first joining Trade channel and it's a frustrating experience to say at least.

 

I do believe the fuel cost for trading should remain there (for the same reasons it exists now) as well as no direct fuel being available.

 

I am for example would be happy to trade resources that I don't need anyway or thousands of components that accumulate over time but as price for those things would be minimal I just can't bother to go offering those on chat channel. If marketplace existed, this would benefit many people, especially at sub 50 levels.


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#17
The Insane Wood Fairy

The Insane Wood Fairy
  • 124 posts
Trade fuel? Hell no. Imagine all the alts that get abandoned after the fuel on them gets transferred to main acc
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#18
Quadro40k

Quadro40k
  • 288 posts

Trade fuel? Hell no. Imagine all the alts that get abandoned after the fuel on them gets transferred to main acc

 

Yup, that's the first thing that comes to mind - alt abuse for free fuel.


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#19
Yukon Kizmiaz

Yukon Kizmiaz
  • 18 posts

One thing that's really interesting in your proposal is a marketplace window where you could place bids unattended.

 

If it's limited to standard stuff (resources, medical items, components, junk, active gear, boxes, keys) it could even be automated, meaning once the buyer accepted the offer, exchange happens immediately.

 

If it's extended to items (weapons, clothes, gear, schematics, books) it would need to be manually accepted by seller (as the price would be descriptive, so buyer would need to assess whether offering matches his request).

 

This would allow for much bigger activity in trades, especially at low levels. I remember myself first joining Trade channel and it's a frustrating experience to say at least.

 

I do believe the fuel cost for trading should remain there (for the same reasons it exists now) as well as no direct fuel being available.

 

I am for example would be happy to trade resources that I don't need anyway or thousands of components that accumulate over time but as price for those things would be minimal I just can't bother to go offering those on chat channel. If marketplace existed, this would benefit many people, especially at sub 50 levels.

 

Thank you.

 

Yes, it would be unattended. You simply make your offer or exchange then log off, whatever. Some other player comes along, checks out what's available, and either makes a trade or posts their own offer. Pending offers could stand for, say, 24 hours, and if no one accepts, they automatically come down.

 

I suggest the big 4 resources because ultimately that's what everyone's looking for... although I imagine effects books or supply boxes could get thrown in there too. My concern with getting into components is it would be a big, sprawling mess. If the trading post, such as it were, included every last item available in the game, I imagine you'd have to navigate several different dropdowns, and even then, it might be hard to find someone who's offering small gears for wood splints, for example. So I propose keeping it simple.

 

With respect to fuel... I don't see the point in levying some kind of fuel penalty to complete a trade. If you have a resource someone wants, and they have a resource you want, and the two of you can come to an equitable exchange, why should either of you be penalized for it? It's not like there's a finite amount of fuel in the game. Con Artist games gains nothing by "taxing" trades with fuel. Con Artist games loses nothing by taking the fuel penalty away. Having a fuel penalty only ensures certain people are allowed to trade, and excludes those who either don't have enough for a trade or can't/won't buy more fuel. I don't buy fuel. I get by just fine with whatever it is I scrounge on missions. So why should I be penalized if I don't have enough fuel in order to trade for some other resource?

 

I propose making fuel one of the 4 commodities one can exchange because CA isn't losing anything by doing that. Whether you bought the fuel or found it, either way it's yours, and you should be allowed to use it the way you want. If I want to offer someone 50 gallons of fuel for 300 metal, why shouldn't I be allowed to do that? CA doesn't lose out on anything. They've already given me the fuel for free. And if I don't need the fuel, or someone else does, then why not be able to exchange it for something I'd rather have?


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#20
Sev

Sev
  • 553 posts

Sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but this is never going to happen.

 

First of all, the "tax" is there for a reason.  It is to stop (or at least slow down) people using alt accounts for farming, etc.  If you could move resources for free then we would have a lot more people setting up second and third accounts to feed into their main account.  By having a tax and limited slots they have to put effort into the other account.

 

Secondly, whilst I like the idea of being able to post items, also posting what you want would just be a logistical nightmare. Eg:  You want to trade X for Y... what version of Y? What level? Is it a minimal level, or a specific one.  Is it a unique? How do you know it is one you want, as they are all different, etc.  The thought of catering for all these possibilities is enough to make me want to run and hide.

 

Then you have the problem of approval.  

 

Auto approving a trade for you is fraught with danger for a bunch of reasons.  I would hate to see the back lash if it wasn't 100% accurate all the time.

 

Getting you to approve trades.. maybe that would work, but I imagine there would be a lot of spamming, etc.  Do you put it up, then wait for someone to accept, then you approve? That sounds like it may work, but what 'state' are the items in? can you use them? are they locked.

 

Eg:  you put up 500 water, but you haven't been online for a while and now you don't have that. What if the other person no longer has those items in the time it takes you to approve it? Do you stop the whole trading process? do you take out the items out of your inventory straight away? if so then that becomes exploitable unless you limit the number of trades you can put up.

 

These ideas are just off the top of my head.  I'm sure I could think of more if I really thought about it.

 

P.S. Admittedly I didn't read the whole thread so sorry if I covered something someone else already said.





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